Corona Virus

[Davy51]

Looking at the number of MPs turning up for these critical debates they should have no problem with social distancing in the House.

[Observer II]

We've also got Macron threatening to ban Brits travelling to France; but doing nothing to stop or take back illegal migrants who are still crossing the channel.

[Milky]

I have watched documentaries about one day a deadly bug that will kill millions once again killing millions of people. While I know it is not possible to plan for the unknown how is it that essential medical staff are running out of protective gear, why is there not more disinfection of public areas and why are people told there is little point in wearing masks?

Even if masks don't offer 100% protection  logic says they must offer some, same with gloves? The Chinese experts seem to think masks help.

I still don't get why mass gatherings were not banned sooner.

 

[asperity]

There's nothing to stop you wearing a mask if it makes you feel safer Milky.

[Evil Sid]

At one time if you went into a shop wearing a mask and gloves you would probably be arrested. Now it is the other way round.🕵️‍♀️

[asperity]

I'm surprised at the complaints from medical staff aimed at the government about the shortage of personal protective equipment. The NHS is a huge organisation funded to the tune of £Billions per year so surely it is up to the NHS to ensure that the staff are properly equipped? It's not like the PM or the Health Secretary are responsible for keeping a stock in their spare bedrooms in case NHS staff run short. Or perhaps it's the NHS bureaucrats on their high salaries and golden pension funds who should be held to account for not doing the jobs they are paid for?

[Davy51]

Perhaps a result of the disposable ppe society that we live in Asp. There was a time when all clothing was laundered ,sterilised & reused ,now a lot is binned after use.

[Stallard12]

Now is not the time to point fingers - time enough for thinkin' when the dealin's done.

[Observer II]

As far back as January, anyone calling for a draconian lock down and a ban on global travel, would have been laughed at - now they're all calling for it - but now is too late - the horse has bolted.  This should have been nipped in the bud in Wuhan, but the Chinese were in denial and wanted to save face;  until they realised after their initial delay and then really showed what draconian means.  Governments all around the world have been behind the curve,  these pandemics do happen periodically and States should be prepared.

[Stallard12]

Having said that !  I'm disgusted !  The Senate Democrats have just blocked the passage of the bill to help small businesses until theRepublicans agree to include money for wind power!

On the other hand, just watched the conference headed by VP Mike Pence, there's you're next President.

!

 

[asperity]

3 hours ago, Davy51 said:

Perhaps a result of the disposable ppe society that we live in Asp. There was a time when all clothing was laundered ,sterilised & reused ,now a lot is binned after use.

 

2 hours ago, Stallard12 said:

Now is not the time to point fingers - time enough for thinkin' when the dealin's done.

This is exactly my point. We have a massively funded NHS with well paid managers who are supposed to be prepared for emergencies like this. But now an emergency has ocurred these managers have acquired slopey shoulders and all of a sudden it's government's fault that the equipment isn't available. If this happened in a private industry, management would find themselves in court on serious charges of corporate manslaughter (remember Herald of Free Enterprise?).

[Milky]

14 hours ago, asperity said:

There's nothing to stop you wearing a mask if it makes you feel safer Milky.

Well, yes I know that but I am talking about advice the government give us.

[Milky]

5 hours ago, asperity said:

I'm surprised at the complaints from medical staff aimed at the government about the shortage of personal protective equipment. The NHS is a huge organisation funded to the tune of £Billions per year so surely it is up to the NHS to ensure that the staff are properly equipped? It's not like the PM or the Health Secretary are responsible for keeping a stock in their spare bedrooms in case NHS staff run short. Or perhaps it's the NHS bureaucrats on their high salaries and golden pension funds who should be held to account for not doing the jobs they are paid for?

I disagree. It is up to the government to plan for national emergencies and it should have stocks of cheap things like masks and goggles, it should also have a plan to put  things into production quickly.

It is only last week we were being told the UK is special and the virus will work differently in the UK, now we are in a lock down and we are not different after all.

 

[Evil Sid]

not to worry the cruise holidays are still advertising trips around the med and the holidays in turkey ad is still being shown so at least they are optimistic...🤭

But us brits are different, we take great effort to go on holidays to warn torn countries with teh attitude "oh it doesn't concern us we are british"....🤣

[Observer II]

Think travel is a thing of the past now - anyone over 70 won't see another foreign holiday imo, and the millenials will be busy in paying for the financial costs to the economy for the rest of their lives.

[asperity]

10 hours ago, Milky said:

I disagree. It is up to the government to plan for national emergencies and it should have stocks of cheap things like masks and goggles, it should also have a plan to put  things into production quickly.

It is only last week we were being told the UK is special and the virus will work differently in the UK, now we are in a lock down and we are not different after all.

 

So why isn't it up to the bloated management of the NHS to ensure their staff have adequate equipment for medical emergencies? The government is responsible for providing the finance for this, not for providing the equipment. If it's a question of money then that's another argument, and we all know that we could spend the total GDP of the country on the NHS and the cry would still be that the NHS is underfunded.

[Observer II]

Think you have to differentiate between peace time requirements and what in effect are wartime requirements.  The NHS is designed for "normal" domestic requirements,  although we could argue their ICU capacity was inferior to Germany for example.  However, when we talk about a strategic threat like this virus, where the whole Country and economy has to be reorganised, it's clearly the responsibility of Government, to have plans and equipment in place to meet any and all contingencies. However, the normal counter argument  for such preparation, is that the build up and storage of equipment is fiscally wasteful,  especially if the threat is considered unlikely.   The same calculations were in play prior to WW2  and during the Cold War; should HMG provide shelters that may not be required or should they write off a proportion of the population as casualties - seems the latter choice was taken and in the event, they got away with it.  The same argument can be applied to the recent cases of flooding,  is it possible to physically prevent all possibilties of floods, and is it the responsibilty of the EA or HMG ?  What is clear, is that the prevalence of such things as flooding and epidemics is increasing, so at least, to some extent, HMG needs to plan and prepare to mitigate their effects on the Nation, and build capacity into our emergency infrastructure, as well as adjusting our approach to such things as food standards internationally; global trade and travel practises and medical research and capacity.  

[asperity]

Obs, you have to admit that when it comes to preparing the country for outside threats be it war, famine, flood, drouught or pestilence the government is the most inefficient agency for doing it. The reason why the NHS has a management structure is because the government is so useless at managing anything. Therefore it is the managers of the NHS who should have been doing the preparation, not sitting on their collective bums expecting someone else to do their job. I was told today that the manufacturer of medical PPE, that supplies their wares around the world, approached the government at the start of this crisis and offered to supply the NHS with their need. The government of course directed them to ask the NHS directly. The NHS turned them down because it claimed to have sufficient supplies. Is this true? I doubt we'll ever find out, but sounds like the incompetence we expect from our public sector.

[Observer II]

We'll see how a private sector driven solution copes in the USA !     I'm sure if the profit motive was in play, the pubs, clubs, gyms etc would still be open and the lemmings would still be crowding in them !     😉

[Milky]

13 hours ago, asperity said:

So why isn't it up to the bloated management of the NHS to ensure their staff have adequate equipment for medical emergencies? The government is responsible for providing the finance for this, not for providing the equipment. If it's a question of money then that's another argument, and we all know that we could spend the total GDP of the country on the NHS and the cry would still be that the NHS is underfunded.

what Observer 2 (or is it eleven?) has said the NHS is there to deliver care for everyday care.

I don't get why the individual NHS trusts are responsible for procurement of standard things.

[algy]

In 1348 the plague came to our shores from China and by 1349 it had killed 20 -40% of the population of this country, yet again these lunatics have released another terrible virus on the West, if they can't conquer the world by trade or military means perhaps they think that they can weaken us sufficiently so as to reduce our ability to defend our borders by decimating the population of the Western world. Perhaps it may be a far fetched theory but so is "A bucket of S**t from China"!.

[Bill]

Ha ha. Not heard that expression in a long time, it’s something my old dad used to say.

Good to see you back Algy and hope your keeping well.

 

Bill

[Observer II]

Where did the "ability to defend our borders" come from Algy ?  There has been no defence for decades, with the EU taking in all comers from around the world, to walk through the Shenghan zone, en route to the UK, and they're still crossing the channel on rubber boats.  Conversely, we've had a generation of snowflakes committed to global travel, some still trapped in foreign countries and pleading to get home.   Globalisation has provided the perfect storm for this event,  which will continue in a world with poor food and hygene standards, where connectivity is more important than common sense.

[asperity]

7 hours ago, Milky said:

what Observer 2 (or is it eleven?) has said the NHS is there to deliver care for everyday care.

I don't get why the individual NHS trusts are responsible for procurement of standard things.

Do you think the various Police forces around the country rely on the government to procure new uniforms and notebooks for their bobbies? Or the various fire brigades for replacement hoses and helmets? Do local councils wait for central government to procure the yellow coats for their binmen (sorry, domestic refuse operatives)? The list is endless of the things that central government doesn't get involved in the day to day running of. That is why the likes of the NHS have devolved management.

[algy]

1 hour ago, Bill said:

Ha ha. Not heard that expression in a long time, it’s something my old dad used to say.

Good to see you back Algy and hope your keeping well.

 

Bill

Thank's Bill, we never did have a pint together perhaps when this nasty business ends and the dust settles we will have a jar or two together..