algy Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 What are the forum members opinion regarding the re-introduction of capital punishment in England?. My own opinion is that where it is proven that someone has taken a human life by any illegal act and it is proven beyond any doubt, such as the case in Norway of mass murderer Anders Breivik then they should have their life taken away, not fussed how it is carried out inhumanely or humanely, just get rid of them of the planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wirewire Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 I'm against it - there have been too many instances in the past where people have been found guilty of murder, only to have their conviction quashed at some later date. One person killed by the state, who turns out to be innocent, is one too many in my book. In any event, what we really need is a robust prison service and sentencing regime whereby if someone is found guilty of murder, they need to spend more time behind bars like in the USA and in many cases actually die behind bars. If you look at Brady, he keeps begging to die and we keep him alive, thus creating a living hell for him for the atrocious crimes he committed - I'm glad he's alive and miserable, and long may it continue - why give him the easy option of a quick and painless death that releases him from his torment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverlady54 Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 I would be very concerned that 'beyond any doubt' could lead to fabricated eveidence. I don't have a lot of faith in either the police or legal profession being beyond reproach judging by their recent activities, so there could be many miscarriages of justice that could not be reversed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 Agree with Wirewire - and in any case, the ECHR wouldn't let us do it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 I would advocate bringing back the death penalty for every unlawful killing. The murderers can have five years in gaol as a cooling off period whilst any miscarriages would be then less likely. They should then be hung..........thus preventing them from re-offending as is rife at the moment. Every re-offender hung is a victim's life saved.Further there should no "suicide watch" in prison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stallard12 Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 Texas recently passed legislation to speed up the process on death row. You gotta love it, everybody's talking about banning the death penalty and Texas is putting in a fast lane !!!! The first part is true, the second is a joke, just in case anybody....... It works for us, there is defintely a feeling in the criminal community that you take Texas and Florida seriously. If you're on death row, you are a really dedicated criminal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry hayes Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 My limited experience with major criminals was that they feared the death penalty. A life sentence was OK cos they'd be out in 10years or less. Many people have had their convictions for murder overturned - I would suggest most of them were actually guilty. People always point to the possibility of hanging the wrong man and it has certainly happened once. On the other side of the coin I would argue that many, many more completely innocent people have been murdered since the abolition of the death penalty. A small number of murderers are out in relatively few years and have murdered again. How does all that balance out? Yes, I would favour the death penalty for those plainly guilty of the most horrible crimes - don't think anyone suggests hanging all people convicted of murder. All hot air though, as in other things, the genie has left the bottle and there is no going back. Liberal policies in my opinion have wrecked so many things in this country. Happy days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 Perhaps H you could explain how/why, those Countries with the most severe judicial penalties (incl CP); appear to have the highest crime (incl murder) rates? In most cases CP isn't a deterent, cos murder tends to be a spontaneous event or a calculated one, based on the belief that the perpetrator won't get caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 I agree with wire wire and Obs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry hayes Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 Lots of murders are pre-meditated - poisoning as an example. Householders murdered by burglars are pre-meditated in the use of violence.How many people killed in drugs disputes? I refer you to a break-in at the Black Bear garage many years ago, when violence was used on two bobbies by passing London criminals. One of them said to me in the cells, "We'll get 7 to 10 yers for this. Next time I'll use a shooter and be out in 10". In my opinion, all deaths using weapons should be judged as pre-meditated. Happy days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 One person killed by the state, who turns out to be innocent, is one too many in my book. Isn't a person murdered by a repeat offender a "person killed by the state"? Or at least a "person killed by the failure of the state to protect them". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianR Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 I think if there is a conviction of murder, then it should be considered but only 4 crimes of the utmost barbarity, serial killers, mass acts of terrorism etc. I would propose a 2 year delay between sentenacing to life and consideration for the death penalty if that criteria is met, to allow for clemency arguments and further evidence .For want of a better word, bog standard murders wouldnt qualify. Brady, Huntley, Neilsen where there clealry is absolutely no doubt would qualify. Save huge amoutns of money by not keeping them alive for 40 + years. ECHR can be withdrawn from if they wanted to.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egbert Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 There is little doubt that violent crime generally, particularly involving the use of firearms, increased shortly after capital punishment was abolished. I'd be in favour of bringing it back in the most serious cases, particularly if a gun or knife was used. I would also like to see some form of corporal punishment brought back - particularly in schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted August 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 There is little doubt that violent crime generally, particularly involving the use of firearms, increased shortly after capital punishment was abolished. I'd be in favour of bringing it back in the most serious cases, particularly if a gun or knife was used. I would also like to see some form of corporal punishment brought back - particularly in schools. Egbert seems to be the only one that understood what my original statement read, I would bring it back only if it was 100% certain that the person had killed someone, e.g. a situation where a thug walks into, let us say a post office and demands money with menace, that is by brandishing a weapon, for whatever reason he shoots or stabs and kills a member of the public or counter staff in front of witnesses, now are you doogooders telling me (without embroidering fanciful extenuating circumstances - obs & lt) that this killer is not guilty of murder and does not deserve to die. Regarding Capital Punishment being a deterent I'm not particularly concerned whether it is or isn't, if it is then good that's a bonus, in my opinion if a person murders another person (or persons) in my book they do not deserve to continue breathing the atmosphere on this planet. I rest my case, as a matter of fact I really need to put it down, it's getting heavy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 Having had a family member murdered, I would hang all murderers and have always held that view. Wirewires view is of having a robust prison system with longer sentences that all cost money.....money we haven't got and money that will keep increasing year on year as wages and everything else increases. The one thing that has haunted me all the years since my wife was murdered is the fact that I have paid for the murderers cushy life in prison through my taxes. I have paid for his breakfasts, his dinners, his TV, his gym, his library, his medical attention and god knows what else. Personally, I would have preferred that money in my pocket to pay for some additional luxuries for my son who was left without a mum after what was done...... These liberal; luvvies will hopefully never know what it is like to lose a family member as I have done and everything else that goes with it. Unfortunately because of these softy doogooder policies, "my criminal" was in an open prison after 10 years and walked out and killed another woman..... so he has now killed two women.... please explain to me wire wire, Obs or Kije.... please explain why he should not be executed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 I certainly don't class myself as a "do gooder", and in an overpopulated world, not to obsessed with the value of human life. However, the notion that CP acts as deterent is patent nonesense, as many murders are commited in the heat of the moment; and those which involve premeditation are perpetrated in the belief that the offender will not be caught. If we had confidence in our police and judiciary to find, not just beyond a reasonable doubt, but beyond any doubt, I might be persuaded. As for punishment, life in prison should mean exactly that; but no doubt even that would result in appeals to the EHRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 I don't think anyone could really explain that Baz as unless they had been in your position, which thankfully for us I imagine no others reading this have. In your position then yes I would definately feel exactly the same although a big part of me does feel like that anyway. I forgot to move my post from last night when this discussions started half way though a different topic (appologies)...... so here's what I said last night. If anyone ever intentionally killed a member of my family I would happily point the gun at their head, flick the switch, administer the poison or tie the rope around their necks, or at least I think I would as thankfully I have never been in a situation where anyone I know has been murdered so I can only guess that the hatred I would feel for them. But on the other end of the line would be that person's family or parents pleading for me not to kill their brother, sister, aunt, uncle, father, son, mother or whoever.... maybe they had not meant to, maybe they were drunk, maybe they swayed by others, maybe ........... so what they still did it ! So what would I do ? A life for a life and all that ? Should everyone who intentionally kills be taken out of society for good? I have no idea (thankfully) but the biggest part of me says a definate yes but then a tiny part of me says that is the easy way out for them. Whatever, they certainly should NOT be housed in a soft cell prison full of free privileges and rights, possible early release for good behaviour etc etc. If a person kills another either intentionally and/or premeditated then they should lose their 'lives' too even if reality that means just to cage them with the very minimum needed to keep them alive and nothing more (if they have to be kept alive) so that they suffer for the rest of their lives for what they have done !! Does that sound a bit harsh ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 Wot Eagle, Harry and Baz said. These people have NO respect for life, so why should people worry about their rights etc. Criminals these days are treated as the victim. Where has that sympathy come from? Lord Longford has a lot to answer for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 Seems quite a few MP's/MEP's have signed the petition to bring it back now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 Should everyone who intentionally kills be taken out of society for good? I have no idea (thankfully) but the biggest part of me says a definate yes but then a tiny part of me says that is the easy way out for them. Whatever, they certainly should NOT be housed in a soft cell prison full of free privileges and rights, possible early release for good behaviour etc etc. If a person kills another either intentionally and/or premeditated then they should lose their 'lives' too even if reality that means just to cage them with the very minimum needed to keep them alive and nothing more (if they have to be kept alive) so that they suffer for the rest of their lives for what they have done !! Does that sound a bit harsh ... No, seems about right to me Dizzy. Anyway with DNA advances there is a greater certainty of having the right person on trial for murder these days. But even without capital punishment I say to hell with the do-gooders (humanists, probation officers, prison reformers and others of that ilk) LIFE SHOULD MEAN LIFE and no release to reoffend after a few years. A murderer behind bars can never kill another innocent person. And with a life sentence just the bare minimum - a cell with a bed, not a cell likeable to a hotel room, and absolutely no extras! Forget if a murder/manslaughter was premeditated or not, if a person takes a weapon, be it gun, knife, or cosh into his/her hand he/she does so with the intention of using it. As for costs of keeping people in prison some of the costs (if not all) can be recouped by getting rid of the do-gooders (no wages and expenses to be paid for). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 Obs.... why are the "Anti-CP" brigade so intent on spouting the "it's not a deterrent" line...... I know it is not a deterrent..... it never was and never will be. That isn't the point. It is a punishment. The Ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime of taking a life. Part of the problem with it all is that there is now NO punishment for murder as those that commit the crime are dropped into open prisons after less than 6 years inside and are free to come and go as they please..... They get back into their bad ways and carry on their life of crime when they get out. so please remember, Capital Punishment is not a deterrent; it is the Ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 As another thought, whilst cycling at the gym tonight, I was watching a programme called "someone's Daughter, Someone's Son" which was all about the impact of having a child murdered (child of those left behind so some were 20 odd) The first story about the nurse who was killed in Blackpool by her boyfriend who was an ambulance driver. He beat her.... she went to the Police....He beat her again and raped her 9 times (even though she was 7 months pregnant) they arrested him and he was promptly let out on bail because of some badgering by his defence lawyers (they are just one step up from criminals in my eyes) he then had a trial date of almost 8 months in the future during which time his victim was a virtual recluse; such was her fear of him. The defence team then get all the statements from the family of the victim and the accuser etc..... which wound him up even more and after realising she was going to testify in open court and not a video link...... he went out, found her and murdered her...... pre-meditated and should be first in line for the drop. Watch the programme (Iplayer or whatever) if you want an idea of the impact on those left behind. Thiose without rights (unlike the murderer) and then comment....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 I don't question your criticism of our legal system or current laws, with the EHRC right at the top. Deterent is the word most commonly applied by the pro-CP lobby - so I guess we agree, it isn't. As for punishment - I recall the anecdote of the masochist saying to the sadist - "beat me, beat me". And the sadist said "NO"! One has to be alive to suffer pain and torment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fugtifino Posted August 6, 2011 Report Share Posted August 6, 2011 No to CP, but yes to life sentences. This place does surprise me sometimes, respect to all here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 It’s a nay from me but with greatest of respect to everyone who thinks otherwise. For me it’s just not civilized and I’d like to think we’ve moved on from practices like this. That said, the life in prison option as it stands doesn’t work for me either, it should be hell not Butilins. Man arrives in hell only to find everyone standing in bathtubs full of poo with the devil going round with a teapot offering out drinks. Just as he was thinking this isn’t half as bad as I thought, a whistle blows and the devil shouts “Right, tea break over, back on yer heads!” Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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