Jump to content

20 mph


Recommended Posts

Seeing as the Police have today said they will not give points to anyone on a motorway doing up to 86 mph, I really cannot see why these 20 limits are being brought in because there will be no one enforcing them. It is just a waste of money. What is the point of spending so much when on the majority of the current 30mph roads, doing 20 or there abouts is the norm anyway......It doesn't make financial sense.




No one likes the council or the majority of the councillors anyway, so rubbishing them and their position has become the norm I'm afraid as most are indeed only in it for what they can get out of it personally and those who toe the party line...... long gone are the councillors who by and large did what was good for the community and not their own ambitions.....Jo Grotty being a prime example of the self serving and using things to further their political ambitions....once she was battered at the election; she was never to be seen again!

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Has it ever occurred to you, that the people who criticise the council and it's(our) employees, have personal experience in dealing with them.

Slight difference in your approach to get something new off the ground, and the rest of us trying to get "NORMAL" things sorted out.


Welcome to the REAL world. :roll::roll::roll: You do need a reality check.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ROD THIS IS A FORUM so more than normal level of official or material objections are often aired ... but PLEASE give us all a little more credit as I'm sure each and everyone person who has posted on here is more than capable of putting forward a constructive, objective, pro-active, rational and non-abusive well worded letter of objection (or support) to the council should they ever wish too :wink:


And also... personally from me... I will be the one who decides if I am actually wasting my time or not as it is my time to use as I prefer or find fitting :D And I?m sure like me Rod if it was the other way around you would strive to arrive at an informed and objective decision too :D


The problem I have now is that my drier has another 20 minutes until it's cycle ends so I may as well keep typing and reply more fully so at least I won?t have to bother explaining myself at any other time :lol:


I think that some of you are wasting your time trying to come up with a list of roads to be kept at 30 based upon whether they are gritted or whether they are red or yellow, or Red Routes or no.


Yes Rod and in some respects myself, and maybe others, are possibly all wasting our time but as no-one, including yourself, is actually giving any idea as to say WHICH roads are CURRENTLY classed as main/arterial/through routes (or whatever you want to call them) and there seems to be some difference of opinion all round with regards to what actually constitutes a main road or which roads the 20?s Plenty would like to see being 20 in the long run via their campaign so people like myself (who are interested in what happens where we live) will try and find out or figure it out for ourselves.




Well they way I look at it, and of course I can only answer for myself here, is that?


Regardless of the Town Centre/Orford/Great Sankey 20 mph Limit (which has already been approved so is old news now) there IS a plan to roll out the 20 mph scheme across the whole of Warrington.


Am I personally against that? WELL NOT COMPLETELY but on a grand scale I DO NOT KNOW and my reasons are as follows :


Firstly I am not totally against 20 mph speed limits being imposed on certain roads and I have said that before BUT despite all the news stories, despite all your 20?s Plenty coverage and information and despite the limited information from the council so far I STILL HAVE NO IDEA how this suggested default of 20 mph will either work, be implemented, be enforced, what benefit it will actually give or indeed how it may impact on the whole of Warrington.


Why? Well that?s simply because I am only being told what those in favour think ie mainly your 20?s Plenty Group who seem to be pushing for it worldwide and who have so far bombarded me with facts such as reduced emissions, reduced noise, reduced fuel consumption, statistics from other countries who?s road infrastructure is not WARRINGTON and a lot of other information besides that does not seem to ring true or convince me and of which I am still seeing no true figures. We are getting nothing more at all from any other corner.


I have no idea which roads this 20 roll out may ultimately relate to, how many roads will/may be affected, whether it ?could? include some of the roads in people?s areas that we/they live and which they feel are classed as the main routes. To me the main routes are the more dangerous ones and presumably the most number of accidents occur on these roads so do you ultimately want these to be 20 mph too but will settle for all the others in the mean time ? I know you wont be able to do this so perhaps I was just being a bit cynical there..sorry.


But in simple?. ?who knows eh? as no-one is giving any clues and now just to make it even more confusing the word ?blanket? roll out is suddenly being replaced/renamed with the word ?default?..

For all we all know, it could be simply relate to all the smaller side roads that people largely do 20 mph or less on already and as such may not impact on the main traffic flow through Warrington or our day to day journeys.


Maybe !!!! by making them a ?default? 20 you/the council hope it will make everyone abide by the lower limit ? something which I doubt purely based on the fact that ?some? people do not obey the current 30?s so they would not obey the ?20? if it was in place but again I reiterate that THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE do already drive at much slower speeds dependant on road, surroundings, condition and other factors.


So in that instance my concern about the cost of implementation comes into the equation as does my question regarding the actual number of injuries and incidents based on totals for each and every road in Warrington.


If for example it was shown that no injuries have ever happened on the majority of roads ?x? area ?y? and speeds are already lower than the default then is it justifiable to go to all the expense of specifically sign posting these roads as 20 limits when again it will make no difference ?


It?s all a bit of a no-mans land at the moment with everyone thinking about their own area, the possible impact (if indeed there is any) but also thinking about the larger issue of day to day travel around Warrington which obviously includes the travel of others coming through Warrington or visiting.


Will these people abide by the rules after all how many are used to driving everywhere at 20 mph ??


Will they even be aware that the majority of the roads are 20 mph as the guidelines for signs could mean that only the small ones are erected at strategic places. I ask this as I had driven towards the college at 30 mph for a week before I spotted the small 20 mph sign on the approach ? I hope they all update their Sat Navs and speed warnings too.


If you can?t be sure that people will stick to the new 20 mph limits then do you really think parents will believe it is safer to allow their kids to walk to school/cycle on the roads/play in the streets more etc etc .. or indeed for adult themselves to cycle and walk more... isn?t this just a false sense of security as the same dangers will still be there?


Will it encourage me to ride a bike on the road.. NOPE ! Would it encourage me to walk more.. NOPE as I already walk anyway) but not along dual carriageways or motorways)


Another 8 minutes left on the drier?..


For a large part of the area where I live I am fully aware which roads are main/arterial/through routes and which side roads are predominantly already less that 20 (apart form the idiots of course) so that?s easy? so should a consultation ever happen for my area (which I hope it will rather than just implementing it anyway) then at least I have the knowledge of the area to be able to submit an OBJECTIVE comment should I feel I need to but as for the rest of Warrington I don?t know.


Like you say in one of your other paragraphs

The Scrutinee Committee will be guided by their officers and anyone else who takes the time, trouble and effort to put together objective suggestions.


Guided by their 'officers'.. so they will not making their own decision then ???


As THEY (the Scrutinee Committee) will be making a decision of how to assess all roads which will affect us all then yes our input may be asked for (but this is not always always the case with scrutiny committee meetings is it? and will it be an open meeting where people can actually speak and put their thoughts forward or will it be held behind ?closed doors? as some often are?.


If people do get the chance to have their say either in writing before the meeting (consultation period maybe?) or at the meeting about the way the roads are categorised how can anyone put forward an objective or informed suggestion or solution IF WE HAVE NO IDEA in advance what they are discussing or which roads are currently classed as M/A/T etc etc etc etc?


Do you see where I am coming from? No I thought not :lol:


Your other comments where you say

?I am sure that if you can persuade them of all the benefits of a 30mph speed limit in an objective, rational and non-abusive way then this will be taken into account.?


Well I already commented on that at the beginning :roll:


YOU / 20?s PLENTY and the CYCLE GROUP all have the upper hand Rod as you have YOUR OWN INFORMATION and statistics which you have pressed forward which is how we got here in the first place and no doubt you have also been able to address the council/exec/traffic dept/councillors and scrutinee committee members. You also probably have a lot of the councils info too as you would have wanted to go through it and of course you have been involved?? where as ?we? and all other road users have NOTHING AND NO CLEAR INFORMATION AT ALL and are not being given any.


Me? Well faced with little info I decided to try and figure it out myself and all I wanted was a list of the current M/A/T Routes in Warrington which I couldn?t find ......so I tried to find a list of the gritting routes.. which I couldn?t find? and I also wanted to know how many accidents/collisions/injuries had occurred on all roads in Warrington (with road name and location).. which I couldn?t find.


All this information is in reports and lists somewhere which the council have access too and I?m sure your group must also have it is SO WHY CAN?T WE SEE IT.


You never know Rod once I understand it all and people start telling us the real tail (and I will get it at some stage as I?ve now got part of my gritting list) I may even come round to your way of thinking if it shows that the roads are as unsafe as you say they are? but until then my mind is still in limbo land.


I do agree though as like you say in 5 years all this may indeed seem like a storm in a tea cup but possibly for different reasons than the one you suggest you suggest :?


Drier?s finished?and no need for me to say anything else at all now and no need for you to reply either Rod :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess dizzy, that the 20's plenty lot do not want the common plebs to know how many accidents occured on any of the roads destined to be under the 20 blanket..... by merely stating general statistics the fact that all collisions may have happened on one road in one area because of a bad road layout would not come into it.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dizzy and Rod and any councillor who looks


I really do not know why all the fuss.

It is not about 20mph, it is about the rotten process that has imposed these changes on the electorate without appropriate length and depth of discussion. This web site appears to be the only place where such discussion has taken place. It certainly did not take place in Council. Nor on the WBC web forum.


The diktat of the elected councillors "guided" by certain wbc council officers does not necessarily relflect the opinion of most people.


I believe that most people do not really care

most will ignore the 20 signs and drive according to road conditions.

Most times these limits will not be monitored and so the cost of the signage etc seems to be an unnecessary waste of money.

This money could have been spent on education in schools about general road safety. By education I mean actual road safety drills and not a bit of paper given to children with the expectation they will read it and obey it.


The next step is to impose a speed limit on the cycle tracks that have sprouted up atround Warrington. Perhaps this is where the executive should be directing their efforts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I completely agree Wahl and I think that is why I have had such a bee in my bonnet :oops: It's that and of course the other 'information' and 'reasonings' that have been given along the way.


I will try and refrain from further comments now until the council see fit to actually include people as like you say most people probably don't care anyway..... but maybe that's because they are not aware of it yet :wink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Somehow I can't see the police being deployed around town or any residential areas with their speed guns to catch people doing over 20 mph. They only do the main roads on an occasional basis and in different places each time. If the new proposals for raising the margins above the limits at which motorists are prosecuted ever comes in, I wonder what the margin would be for the 20 limit?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that trying to come up with a list of roads is a waste of time.


Instead we should all be safety concious and be writing our MP's/councilpersons with a view to making the Insuring of pedal cycles compulsory as well as yearly cycle safety checks and a valid means of identifying all pedal cycles with plates plus some sort of licensing system that proves that the person riding the pedal cycle is competent to do so.


That way the next time somebody gets run into on a footpath by a person riding a pedal cycle they can at least put a personal injury claim in. It would also stop all these wheelie merchants who remove the front brake so that they can spin the handlebars round and round whilst riding on the back wheel.


If they want to ride around on one wheel buy a unicycle and learn to ride that and juggle. That way they would be less of a threat and at least have a useful skill for when they lose their job and need to earn a few bob :wink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder what the margin would be for the 20 limit?


I'm guessing the Police will enforce a few now and then but let the majority stay at 30


makes sense as most of the trials done with the 20mph limits only saw a 1.2mph ish drop in average speeds anyway. Speed guns are not that accurate

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very harsh words Evils :lol:


But joking aside (actually you probably weren't joking were you :oops:)


It's a shame that cyclists are being portrayed as dangerous beings or road users by some people just because of the idiotic minority who abuse their status on the roads and pavements as there are a lot very sensible bike riders around... and the same can be said for pedestrians and car drivers too.


It's these minority dim witts (which include cyclists, pedestrians and drivers) who need educating and put in their place as until they learn or are shown the error of their ways in a harder way nothing will ever change.


Idiots on Bikes.. well just confiscate their bikes and crush them. They may well think twice about not conforming if they then have to buy another one and that could get crushed too. Mmmm I guess that's where your 'cycles with plates' would be handy though :oops:


Cars.. the same.. caught being a idiot then your pride and joy gets crushed :wink:


OR they could be auctioned of with the money going to charity.


As for pedestrians... well that's a tricky one but if they aren't careful then they run the risk of being crushed too by either of the first two lots :oops:


I guess I'm just waffling for the sake of it now and biding my time until someone makes a decision and someone somewhere hopefully convinces me that it is right either way :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

News page today.....




Good and I hope they do more of these sorts of checks on a regular basis everywhere !


140 idiot drivers caught on 6 roads :evil:


Although it doesn't mention whether they were actually fined or given points on their licences for speeding/using mobiles/having defective vehicles etc only that they had to watch a DVD :?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes but didn?t you notice the road they used for their speed trap? This is clearly an estate feeder road specifically designed to allow traffic to move quickly and safely. It?s essentially a straight none residential road with no obvious safety issues. The current 30mph limit doesn?t reflect this, making it a really easy target for a speed trap.


These are the very roads I?m concerned about when it comes to a 20mph limit. We know our council will apply a blanket limits so a road where the limit may already be artificially slower than needed will become even slower. If the majority of people are already exceeding the existing limit (which I suggest they will be on that particular road) then they?re just not going to slow down even more.


There will be someone though, who WILL drive down Ordinance Avenue making sure they never exceed 20mph. There?ll be a queue of frustrated drivers behind this person and this why the police say they aren?t happy with such artificially low limits.


Question is then why are they out there doing this then? :roll:



Bill :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Local police worked with Warrington Borough Council's environment enforcement officers, officials from Cheshire Fire and Rescue Service, the DVLA and the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA).


Out of the hedges and from behind the trees emerge the band of people who are from agencies that are supposed to be short of front line staff. Perhaps these are the reserves?


Almost 140 vehicles on six roads in the east of Warrington were stopped for checks during the day with offences including speeding, not obeying traffic signals, driving while using a mobile phone and not wearing a seatbelt.

All very serious possible offences. Note there is no dangerous driving.

I agree with Bill that these roads are easy targets so the exercise was really aimed at creating the impression that the police etc were doing a good job.

How many vehicles were not stopped?


Only by having all the information can a sensible conclusion be reached...for instance are there really so many drivers speeding or is it only a few, and if so why were they speeding?

Were they in an emergency situation or was the speed limit inappropriate?

Part of the story is no longer good enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bill does Ordnance Ave still have the big 30 mph signs painted on the road :wink: If so and people are blatantly ignoring the limit then yes it is a good spot for a speed trap.


But why are they out there doing these checks you ask ... well presumably it's to educate and warn people not to drive above 30 on the 30 limit or to exceed any other set limit elsewhere, not to use mobiles when driving, not to drive without insurance or with bald tyres etc.


I agree that is is a sraight road with no actual houses along it but there are nice pathway walks round there which link Risley and Birchwood plus large housing estates to the right of it.


I'm not saying that it should be a 20 by the way as I agree that would be rather 'silly' on that road but enforce the 30 by all means

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What it doesn?t say is what speed the cars were doing. If the definition of speeding is anything above thirty in a thirty zone, then the vast majority of normal drivers will be guilty of speeding on any road like this. In my experience, speed traps are placed where they?re most likely to catch a speeding vehicle rather than where the speed itself is inappropriate.


Ordinance Road is the one with the big signs that clearly not many people take any notice of. But Dizz, am I right in thinking that you would never drive at more than 30 if the limit is 30? :wink: If the vast majority of drivers are exceeding the limit, then we should be questioning the limit.


There has to be some compromise or give and take when it comes to deciding these limits. It?s just not right to constantly play the safety card and expect people to blindly accept it. You could bring every road to a virtual standstill this way and still claim the moral high ground.


As a society we need to be able commute without being penalized by unrealistic limits forced upon us by people who refuse to see anybody else?s point of view but their own.



Bill :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dizz, am I right in thinking that you would never drive at more than 30 if the limit is 30? :wink:


Odd question :?


Yes Bill you are right I would never intentionally drive above 30 in a 30 limit although like everyone I do slightly go over for the odd second here and there as I have no cruise control. I did do 30 along Long Lane when it was a 20 pilot zone though as I didn't spot the tiny sign :oops:


Unless of course you are referring to my posts a long time ago then it was my other half who got two speeding tickets for doing 35 mph in a 30 limit and NOT me and all that was around were fields and the odd sheep :P


If the vast majority of drivers are exceeding the limit, then we should be questioning the limit.


Errrr NO Bill..... we should be questioning the drivers who are ignoring the set limit. Do you mean that if everyone ignores the 30 limit then the council should increase the limit 40 or 50 to match what the drivers 'want' to do. :?


Goodness me Rod will be after you now :lol:


As a society we need to be able commute without being penalized by unrealistic limits forced upon us by people who refuse to see anybody else?s point of view but their own.


I second that one :lol::lol::lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When it comes to artificial limits, I think that?s one area where Rod and myself are in total agreement or at least we used to be. A wholly inappropriate or artificially low limit is most likely to be totally ignored and the classic example of this is the 5mph limit within the hospital grounds. If you were to take average speeds there, it would probably be somewhere in the region of 15-20 mph making the majority of drivers 3 to 4 times over the limit.


Most drivers regulate their speed according to any perceived danger (or lack of), so on back roads, it?s probable that most will drive significantly under the limit. On the other hand, if the road is a motorway that?s clear as far as the eye can see, a driver will not slow to 30 just because a sign says so although I doubt you need me to tell you this.


Now are you seriously saying that if someone was to come along and set a completely bonkers limit (again lets say 5mph) on a perfectly safe road that you wouldn?t object and that you?d drive under that limit?


Do a little background reading on determining safe speed limits and I think you?ll find there?s a lot of research that?s been done on this one and explains why even the police are reluctant to get themselves involved.


Bill :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're completely losing me Bill........ and I don't think Rod would agree with you there :wink:


Since when was 30 mph an 'artificial limit' as I thought you were discussing Ordance Avenue which is a 30 mph limit (and was one even when I worked up that way) and I don't recal any mention of it being reduced to 5 mph not any other road for that matter :?


Would I object to a whole road becoming 5 mph ?.... well probably no need to as it would never happen.


If I was on a motorway and the signs suddenly said 30 mph even though the road was clear then YES I would slow to 30 as instructed as there must be a reason... otherwise I may get a speeding ticket from the hidden cameras :wink:


Wouldn't you slow down Bill TUT TUT :shock:


Anyway can you do the background reading for me and let me know later what you come up with as I make be more awake then :lol::wink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well going on the high speed that the cars seem to be going down our 30 mph road tonight it may be a 0 mph zone soon if any of them crash or I block the road with wheelie bins :evil:


Wonder if there is something in the water today as all the idiots are out in force tonight and in a rush to get somewhere or other very fast..... there's not usually this many idiots or this many cars for that matter ...... maybe Rod has told them all to drive past mine as fast as they can just to prove a point :shock::lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...



did they put all new signs up? because the ones I see now certainly don't look like they have been covered in grey paint....


as for the speed, I haven't really noticed any difference personally as I was never one to go much over 20 in these areas anyway!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Create New...