20 mph

[Geoffrey Settle]

Hi Bazj - I don't know to be honest, they do look new but then maybe they have been very well cleaned. I'm glad that Long Lane hasn't been included.

 

I have been asked for speed bumps in one Close near me by a resident. His close is one of the few that does not have 20mph. He was making the point that there are more families moving in with children but there are also a couple of families with boy racers. As always is getting the balance right.

[Peter T]

Geoff, the "calming" course seems to have worked. Keep up the good work and the openness on the Forum. (What happened to the thumbs up icon?)

[Bazj]

Geoff, with all due respect; do you not think that as a councillor and someone who voted for these limits that you should know if new signs have been installed?

 

After all, one of the many so called pluses for having the 20 limits was the fact that there would be almost no cost to re-instate the limits as the signs were already in place.

 

If new signs have been put up, that is an additional cost that wasn't declared during the campaigning for the limits to be reduced.

 

Can you find out?

[Geoffrey Settle]

Bazj - I don't think I got a chance to vote on the 20 mph - I think that it may have been an executive decision or perhaps it was made by the traffic committee. I was not a member of either.

 

I'm sure that I can find out and/or you could put in an Freedom of Information request to WBC via the Contact Centre.

 

I put one in for somone a couple of weeks ago and I haven't as yet received a reply so they can take time. Having said that his request is a bit more complicated and will require a bit of digging to gather the information he wants

 

I will see what I can do by raising the following request:

 

'I have been asked 2 questions about the introduction of the 20 mph.

 

1. Have there been any additional costs since the pilot for say new 20 mph signs or have the original ones been cleaned and therefore reused?

 

2. Who was involved in making the final decision - i.e. was it as a result of the executive committee?'

[rodk]

Geoff

 

In order to save WBC the cost of responding to a FOI request, I can confirm that the answers to each of your questions are in the public domain and included in reports and minutes for the Executive Board Meeting of 18th Oct 2010 and the Traffic Committee meeting of 14th March.

 

With regard to the costs :-

 

 

8.2 The process of making the 20mph speed limits permanent with the removal of Long Lane and Park Road will cost in the region of ?19,000 and can be met from the 2010/11 capital programme.

 

8.3 The areas directly affected by the 20mph pilots study will be informed of the decision of the Executive Board by direct letter drop which is estimated to cost within the region of ?1500 and will be met 2010/11 capital allocation to Traffic Management and Safety.

 

I understand that the costs referred to in 8.2 are primarily for the Traffic Regulation Order. The signs were already erected as part of the pilot and covered with removable paint at the end of the pilot period.

 

With regard to the decision, this was made by the Executive Board at the meeting. The actual decision and reason for the decision as noted in the minutes were :-

 

Decision ? That the Executive Board agree ?

(1) to note the positive results from the 20 mph pilot schemes and agree to the principle of a long-term roll-out of 20mph limits subject to the availability of funding and outcomes of LTP3 prioritisation;

 

(2) To authorise officers to progress the consultation on individual

schemes, to include ward members and neighbourhood boards, with a view to advertising Traffic Regulation Orders for the 20 mph speed limits, to be determined by the Traffic Committee, within the pilot areas, with the exception of Park Road and A50 Long Lane.

 

(3) To undertake further work to develop road hierarchy and assessment criteria; a prioritisation process; refined cost estimates and; to provide a report to the Environment and Housing Overview & Scrutiny Committee on the outcomes prior to a further report to the Executive Board.

 

Reason for Decision:

To maximise the potential benefits of introducing 20 mph speed limits on residential streets in Warrington.

 

After the Executive Board made this decision then the actual TRO was raised and all the necessary public adverts made. The TRO was considered at the Traffic Committee meeting of 14th March.

The conclusion was :-

 

Resolved,

That the Committee approve the proposal as advertised in respect of the permanent 20mph speed limit orders in the areas of Great Sankey, Orford and Town Centre

 

I trust that this clarifies the process.

 

 

Best regards

 

Rod

[Bazj]

ahhh Rod says so..... therefore it must be true!

 

and how nice of you to think of saving the council money Rod after spending ?20,000+ impimenting the 20mph limits so far

[rodk]

ahhh Rod says so..... therefore it must be true!

 

and how nice of you to think of saving the council money Rod after spending ?20,000+ impimenting the 20mph limits so far

 

You are being ridiculous Baz and there is no need for such facile comments. All I did was to access the WBC website and copy and paste from this into post.

 

Next time I won't bother, you can look it up yourself.

 

 

Rod

[Bazj]

Thank You

[silverlady54]

?1,500 for a direct letter drop!!!!!!!!!!! What on earth are they printing on, silk?? What a waste of our money!

[Dizzy]

I dropped my son off at the college today and due to virtual gridlock trying to go through town we went up Kingsway way and down Long Lane.

 

Is it my imagination.... but are the 20mph signs a lot bigger than the pilot scheme ones ?

 

I actually noticed them today on all the entrances to the roads adjoining Long Lane where as I don't ever remember seeing/noticing them before when we have been that way

 

I do remember that the one that was on Long Lane during the pilot study was only a tiny hence the fact I didn't spot it for a week

 

There's either more of them or they are bigger.... something is different from when I last went down there that's for sure.

[wahl]

Geoff

re I have been asked for speed bumps in one Close near me by a resident. His close is one of the few that does not have 20mph. He was making the point that there are more families moving in with children but there are also a couple of families with boy racers. As always is getting the balance right.

 

Cheapest action is to have a word with the alleged boy racers. I am sure our local police will be able to find time for this activity!

 

Speed bumps are not the answer as they are costly and are not properly maintained in Warrington. They raise the problem of the council having to pay insurance claims if it is proven that the Highway is not properly maintained.

[wahl]

Geof:

I think that it may have been an executive decision or perhaps it was made by the traffic committee. I was not a member of either.

 

It is correct that wbc traffic managemnt would not tell councillors anything as they never do so. They have built up a position where they can do anything wityhout councillor interference. ...or knopwledge.

 

Rodk is correct in that the "executive" made the decision to take action, based on recommendation for activity from wbc traffic management. Whether the original person responsible for initiating the wholse matter is still employed by wbc is yet to be revealed.

[Geoffrey Settle]

Hi Bazj, I've been away in the Langdales for a couple of days running and walking - nowhere near 20 mph even downhill unlike the olden days when I used to fly down the fells

 

I received the following reply whilst I was away.

 

Please find below answers to the two questions noted in your original email of 8 May 2011 to the councillor contact email address copied below.

1. Have there been any additional costs since the pilot for say new 20 mph signs or have the original ones been cleaned and therefore reused?

 

The implementation of the permanent 20mph speed limit required the cleaning of existing repeater and terminal signs from the original trials and the introduction of 38 additional signs to the cost of approximately ?13,200 over the 181 residential roads.

 

2. Who was involved in making the final decision - i.e. was it as a result of the executive committee?

 

The Executive Board Committee authorised officers to progress and make permanent the Traffic Regulation Orders for the 20 mph speed limits within the pilot areas, with the exception of Park Road and A50 Long Lane. The outcome of this was that on 14 March 2011 the Traffic Committee received a further report from officers detailing the letters received in objection to and in support of the delivery of the permanent 20mph speed limits as part of the Traffic Regulation Order making process. The Traffic Committee noted in favour of the permanent order as now delivered.

 

Wahl I did receive an identical request from a resident in Montrose Close. Whilst I was there I notice a lose cobble and he pointed out a missing one. I mentioned that WBC had no spares - he said wait a minute and brought one from his back garden where he had bought some for work he was doing. Hopefully whilst I have been away Duncan has sorted the repair work.

 

You are right about going to the source of the problem, I did this in another close and everything has quietened down, no boy racers.

[Peter T]

Thinking "outside" of the box usually works, but may take some time as it confuses those you are dealing with.

[Bazj]

of course the additional ?13,200 would not have included the labour cost and the fuel costs to go out to every 20 sign and clean it would it?

[Geoffrey Settle]

I dropped my son off at the college today and due to virtual gridlock trying to go through town we went up Kingsway way and down Long Lane.

 

Is it my imagination.... but are the 20mph signs a lot bigger than the pilot scheme ones ?

 

I actually noticed them today on all the entrances to the roads adjoining Long Lane where as I don't ever remember seeing/noticing them before when we have been that way

 

I do remember that the one that was on Long Lane during the pilot study was only a tiny hence the fact I didn't spot it for a week

 

There's either more of them or they are bigger.... something is different from when I last went down there that's for sure.

 

 

Dizzy I'm not 100% sure but I think just like the ones in my croad the big ones are pre-pilot, the new ones are the smaller ones.

[rodk]

Dizzy/Geoff

 

I think that you will find that the larger signs are "gateway" signs which are required wherever the speed limit changes. The smaller signs are "repeater" signs required within the 20mph limit to remind drivers of the speed limit.

 

During the pilot Long lane was also set to 20mph and therefore no "gateways" were required at the side roads. Once Long Lane was left out of the permanent 20mph area then this necessitated all the "gateways" at the border of the limits.

 

Best regards

 

Rod

[Bazj]

hence more additional costs that could have gone towards keeping a library open?

[Dizzy]

Thanks for the explanation Rod

 

I thought I was imagining the bigger new ones and couldn't understand how I hadn't seen them before. No need for me to go to specsavers now

[Peter T]

Some years ago, Highways told us (Residents Assoc) that you couldn't put reminder signs up.

 

If they can, they want to stick some up on both sides of Knutsford Rd. whilst they think safety is such an issue.

[rodk]

Some years ago, Highways told us (Residents Assoc) that you couldn't put reminder signs up.

 

 

I understand that this is correct. For 30mph speed limits it is the existence and the spacing of the lamp posts which determine the speed limit. 30mph repeater signs are only allowed where there is a specific 30mph limit and no such lamp posts.

 

Repeater signs are only required where there is something other than the 30mph limit. Hence they are required on 20mph, 40mph and 50mph limited roads with lighting.

 

This is a national regulation.

 

Regards

 

Rod

[wahl]

Geof Dont mention cobbles to me. WBC stole 39 from where I live and put tarmac in place. When I complained that this reduced the value and damaged the environment, the manager - now left- stated he did not like cobbles. but would look to replacing them. Of course he has left so as usual in wbc nowt is getting done.

the main cause of cobbles lifting is the bin wagons.

[Peter T]

But Rod, surely common sense should prevail as in the case of Knutsford Rd, where people need reminding that it is not a racetrack when you come over Black Bear Bridge and the same going the other way.

The same theory as the 20mph should apply in that reducing speed saves lives/accidents. What the book says should be over-ridden by common sense!!!!

[Peter T]

Geof Dont mention cobbles to me. WBC stole 39 from where I live and put tarmac in place. When I complained that this reduced the value and damaged the environment, the manager - now left- stated he did not like cobbles. but would look to replacing them. Of course he has left so as usual in wbc nowt is getting done.

the main cause of cobbles lifting is the bin wagons.

 

On behalf of Friends of Latchford Parks, I can sell you some, if you are interested.

How much do you want to pay?

[wahl]

i do not want to pay perhaps wbc should though as they stole them