20 mph

[Peter T]

Maybe the council or it's highways dept could help out here and supply a list of the roads that they believe are Warringtons main/arterial/through routes to put our minds at rest. I presume they will be following this topic and they will have already looked into it

 

You jest. they don't even know who runs which dept. any more.

[Dizzy]

I'm sure they do know Peter... although some of them may just may not realise it

 

Anyway I've just about given up trying to find the info on-line but it's probably been staring me in the face and I've missed it.

 

I did find the info on the roads which are now classed as 'red routes' due to the potential at the time for a high level of risk of suffering a serious or fatal crash.

 

Lovely Lane / Folly Lane / Kerfoot Street

Orford Ln / Marsh House Lane/ Padgate Lane

A57 Manchester Road (Kingsway North to Woolston Grange)

A57 Manchester Road (M6 to Borough Boundary)

A49 Wilderspool Causeway (full length and London Road (up to A56 Walton Road)

A49 London Road (A56 Walton Road to Longwood Road)

A50 Kingsway South / Kingsway North

 

Not that it helps in the slightest...

 

As such we will just all have to take it that only the roads coloured in BLUE, GREEN, ORANGE and possibly the odd YELLOW one on google maps are all main/arterial routes

 

So these 'will not?' become 20 mph even though they are probably the most dangerous ones and are mostly residential too .. whereas all other roads WILL become 20 mph.

 

Clear as mud eh

[Bill]

Google maps isn?t that good for seeing the classification of a road apart from the obvious. The ones I posted (where you said you couldn?t see the difference) are the best. I?ll try again.

 

 

This is the official information that Rod thinks doesn?t count for anything. One has to believe that people that design our towns and cities have some idea of what they?re doing. If they design and classify a road as being a key commuting route, then I?m far more inclined to accept their opinion than that of someone with an agenda.

 

Bill

[wolfie]

20mph

37 pages

552 replies

13,655 views

and counting

[wahl]

better than the response to wbc "consultation"

 

hope some councillors on the trafic and management committees see this and realise their inadequate efforts

 

perhaps also Mr David Boyer, who is in charge of transport at the council, and has apparently said:

 

?These roads have been specifically chosen because they will benefit from a lower speed limit. I am confident that the outcome will be safer roads for pedestrians and drivers alike through reduced average speeds and fewer collisions in these areas.?

 

 

 

should be pointed in this direction or through the door whatever is best

[Dizzy]

Thanks for your input and statistics Wolfie

 

At least with so many people sitting here posting on, or reading, this looooong rather monotonous (at times) although rather interesting topic (as it unfolds) is keeping some of us off the streets... One more notch in the ladder of 'success' eh Rod

[Bazj]

So these 'will not?' become 20 mph even though they are probably the most dangerous ones and are mostly residential too .. whereas all other roads WILL become 20 mph.

 

Clear as mud eh

 

Dizzy,

 

you will get the stock answer from Mr 20's plenty..... "a default speed limit......"

 

"council will allocate a higher speed if they deem it necessary" and all the usual clap trap.

 

Rod has already been caught with his pants down with regards to his website declaring they want a "blanket" 20 mph limit on all roads...... a bit of back pedalling (like the pun?) later and it is now "default"

 

It is all nonsense; it will cost money that could go to saving peoples jobs and services and will not give one ounce of benefit.... and may even increase the accident rates in the town centre again.

 

If Rod (obviously short for Rodney......) was serious about reducing traffic and protecting kids and pedestrians etc. surely he wouldn't have such a big car park outside which only encourages people to drive where there are kids about!

[Dizzy]

Google maps isn?t that good for seeing the classification of a road apart from the obvious. The ones I posted (where you said you couldn?t see the difference) are the best. I?ll try again.

 

Thanks Bill although it is still hard to read although the yellows are much clearer but that only shows one small area of Warrington and I want the whole list of roads or a map (women eh)

 

This is the official information that Rod thinks doesn?t count for anything.

 

Ah ha... now we are getting somewhere... If yours is the OFFICIAL INFO where did you get it from and how can I/we get similar info for all the wards/areas within Warrington.

 

The light at the end of the tunnel is now shining... albeit still rather dimly

[AdrianR]

How about this for a list of default exemptions from 20mph?

 

- All classified roads (A or

- Any served by buses (why delay them?)

- Any roads where it would be impactical to impose a low speed limit i.e. rural, less than 50m in length between 2 exempt roads.

- any other road deemed by the emergency services as requiring exemption

 

Views?

[Dizzy]

Errm... 'think time' needed for me on that one Adrian

 

but a quick reply would be...

 

That it does make sense but by definition most roads would be excluded and those left to be included would be the very ones where the VAST MAJORITY of drivers ALREADY drive way below the current 30 mph 'default' limit anyway

 

I really do think it would help if people were given the true figures for each road/area in Warington which shows how many accidents actually occur (and I don't mean bent bumpers and wings) I mean where people are actually injured that way people can finally make real sense of it all rather than just it possibly be a case of wasting money on a whim and a hope or doing something that will not be enforced or make any difference in reality.

 

Even if someone knocked on my door tomorrow and said 'Hey we were just passing and want to make your road a 20 mph limit at no cost to anyone ' well I wouldn't go all out an oppose it but then having lived here for over 18 years I KNOW that it would NOT MAKE THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF DIFFERENCE AT ALL.

 

I'm waffling.. but that is because despite all the talk no real information is being given.....sorry

[Dizzy]

Sorry Baz... I seem to have completely missed you earlier post and reply to me

 

'Default' or 'blanket'... all means the same to me really and most other councils and reports have referred to it as 'blanket' anyway...although maybe they are updating their info too now.

 

Now for my 'Dizzy the Mod' head.... please try not to be quite so personal in your replies about others and remember the forum rules as he may not be a 'Rodney' nor may his car park be dangerous

[Bill]

When I say official, I'm making some assumptions but I doubt the map producers are going to be guessing these things.

 

I bought it Dizz is the answer and it cost me a few hundred pounds but if you only want a quick look you can download a trial version of the software and that has exactly the same information.

 

Google MapPoint 2009 free trial version. It's essentially the posh version of Autoroute.

 

 

 

Bill

[Dizzy]

Damn you said 'official' and now you say 'assumption' so you built me up then dropped me down again... payback time eh

 

I'm not into downloading trial software Bill for one particular info finding mission as you then get stuck with it on your PC with never ending emails about buying it.

 

But if your costly one is part of Google (ie Map Route) then how come Google Maps isn't trustworthy

 

I will now try another 'route' so to speak... thanks anyway :

[disgusted]

Damn you said 'official' and now you say 'assumption' so you built me up then dropped me down again... payback time eh

I imagine he'll be calling it 'default' next

[Dizzy]

Ouch... over to you no doubt Bill

 

Anyway.. never one to give up.... how about Warrington's Primary and Secondary Gritting Routes !!!!!!!! I mean the one's they are supposed to do before anyone takes this topic off at a complete tangent

 

By jove why didn't I think of that before

[Dizzy]

Have a look where you live...

 

Click on the selection boxes on the left and it will not only show you the gritting routes (I class these as main/arterial routes as no-one can tell me any different)

 

BUT there's also a very nice option to click to see the 'CYCLING- Quiet Residential Roads'

 

http://maps.warrington.gov.uk/connect/

 

Funny enough most of the roads round here and in a lot of other areas actually show up in bright yellow as being just that (ie quiet residential roads suitable for cycling !?!?!? ) apart from the main roads of course

 

Now I am a tad confused again as this is on the council's own website

 

Maybe worth doing screen dumps of your own area asap before this gets promptly 'updated' too

[Bill]

Dizz

 

What I was trying to say is that the DfT supply road information to mapping companies, so to my way of thinking that makes it pretty official and certainly a lot more official than Rod?s opinion.

 

Using pre-defined assignments is simple and removes all the arguments and wacky opinions.

 

 

Check your PM

 

 

 

Bill

[Dizzy]

Mmmm I see what you are saying but surely the council/20's P must have a list with the same info from the DfT so why aren't they telling us and surely Google maps must use the same DfT info too.. but anyway I digress and you clearly know a lot more about roads than I do

 

Anyway I do have a very large spreadsheet listing all of the roads in Warrington now and it kept me quiet for an hour or so but may not have been the best way to start eh

 

I will check my pm's now

[Bill]

Whoops Check your PM sounded a bit like a demand

 

Please have a look in your PM if you're feeling well enough now.

 

Hows that?

 

Bill

[Dizzy]

Didn't sound demanding at all Bill but now you mention it.... I have since read and promptly replied Sir

[rodk]

Hi everyone

 

Sorry for not posting any replies for the last couple of days but I have been down in London.

 

I think that some of you are wasting your time trying to come up with a list of roads to be kept at 30 based upon whether they are gritted or whether they are red or yellow, or Red Routes or no.

 

The DfT guidance actually states that when setting speed limits that :-

 

The needs of vulnerable road users must be fully taken into account in order to further encourage these modes of travel and improve their safety.

 

As in the difference in the Highway Code between a "should" and a "must", this lays a pretty heavy responsibility on those setting speed limits.

 

I am afraid that regardless of some of you who never want pedestrians to be on roads, and think that cyclists are "the scum of the earth", your opinions will be registered but may not weigh very heavily in the minds of those charged with setting speed limits. When accompanied with some of the views that those same posters seem to express about councillors and officers then perhaps it is no wonder that this is the case.

 

Councllors and officers do have to take their responsibilities with care. And I can understand that this is why they have decided to ask the Scrutiny Committee to put together the criteria used for assessing exceptions to the residential roads which should be set with a higher speed limit than 20mph.

 

I am sure that if you can persuade them of all the benefits of a 30mph speed limit in an objective, rational and non-abusive way then this will be taken into account. But if you do want to be successful then using Long lane as an example may not be the best one to use because :-

 

a) It has congestion at either end and in the middle and therefore maximum speeds on the part of the road that is not congested does not reffect the total time taken for the whole journey from A49 to Hilden Roundabout.

 

It has a large number of child pedestrians at several schools/ colleges which must be taken into account.

 

c) It was part of the 18 month pilot and during that time traffic did actually slow down, but the lower speed limit did not cause congestion.

 

I doubt very much whether the scrutiny committee will come up with a formula such as A roads or "gritted roads" or Bus Routes. Instead I expect that it will decide upon the factors to take into consideration and how much they should be weighted. In this respect they will be guided by their officers and and anyone else who takes the time, trouble and effort to put together objective suggestions.

 

I then suspect that as each phase of the town is rolled out with its 20mph limits then these factors will be taken into account to decide which roads should be excluded.

 

Can I please re-iterate that this is not a joint WBC/Rod King or 20's Plenty for Us initiative. I/we have no sway over Warrington Borough Council other than the information we put forward and perhaps our knowledge of the issues and how this is being used around the country.

 

In 5 years time this will all be seen as a "storm in a teacup anyway". Petrol will probably be ?5 a litre. We will all have got used to driving around a little slower if we can afford to drive at all. Public transport will be far more important and we will all be grateful for any cheap mechanical device that can get us around the town at 15mph without any real effort.

 

Finally, I would really like to thank Warrington-Worldwide for providing this forum for debate on this subject.

 

It may not have many posters, but I am sure it is viewed by many who have either an interest or a responsibility for not only road safety, but also the quality of life in our streets.

 

And that is perhaps why I do bother to post. I recognise that some of the posters will never be convinced, but do feel that there should be as balanced a debate as possible.

 

My best regards

 

 

Rod

[Dizzy]

I am feeling a tad rattled by certain comments.... I may/may not reply later

[Peter T]

Rod, the quality of life on our streets is down to the individual using caution, NOT down to the speed of the driver.

[disgusted]

I am afraid that regardless of some of you who never want pedestrians to be on roads, and think that cyclists are "the scum of the earth", your opinions will be registered but may not weigh very heavily in the minds of those charged with setting speed limits. When accompanied with some of the views that those same posters seem to express about councillors and officers then perhaps it is no wonder that this is the case.

Nice use of quotation marks, presumably because there's no such quote available on this forum for you to actually quote?

 

Also what views on councillors and officers are we talking about? Again quotes would be appreciatted, because this just looks like mudslinging to me, having run out of arguments you're resorting to spurious claims of bad words and naughty things, and because the bad men on the forum have said this or that, the people in charge of setting these limits are going to take their ball home with them?

[rodk]

Well fatshaft its comments like :-

 

Don't even start on the powelessness of councillors, and their inability to listen to the wishes of their constituents

and

The council, just like Rod, listens only to what it wants to hear and will use the 80% support data to support their own argument. .

and

Cyclists are the scum of the earth, they weave all over the roads like they own them, the majority don't use lights at night and they refuse to use the cycle paths that have cost multi millions of pounds to install. .

and

It was all a bloody fix anyway..... otherwise they would have taken the 20mph signs down after the trial.

 

Why these council bods get away with lying is beyond me. .

and

SID, that is concern. Highways haven't got the nouse to do it sensibly. .

and

My God man; these bloody fools in the town Hall take 6 weeks to decide what tie to wear to a council meeting; so what chance do we have on them doing something sensible for once?? .

 

All of the above are copied and pasted from posts on this thread.

 

I am not making any judgements about whether such comments are appropriate, I am just suggesting that maybe some people would find they would have more influence if they weren't always rubbishing the Council, Councillors and Officers.

 

Far from me doing any mudslinging I am actually making a suggestion that could help those campaigning against 20mph limits to have more influence. But if people want to ignore my suggestion then that's fine by me!

 

Best regards

 

Rod