20 mph

[Bazj]

My mum is 88, doesn't have a computer and doesn't read or buy the Guardian. She doesn't know anything about the 20mph pilot or proposed roll out. No one has been knocking on her door to explain it so I guess you must have a vaild point Peter!

[rodk]

Dizzy

 

Sorry I still don't understand what you mean Rod. Are you refering to roads which were previously 30 mph limits or were they higher eg 40/50/60/70 etc. I'm not being intentionally questionable, I just dont get what you are saying.

I am referring to roads which previously had a 30mph limit and an average speed of between 25 and 29mph.

 

But surely Rod the original consultation only applied to the roads that were in the pilot scheme and which have now been approved as permenant. Well that's the way it was shown to be anyway at the time.

 

Had everyone known that the consultation was part of a broader decision which could/would result in a mass future rollout of 20 mph across the whole of warrington then more people would have likely got involved either for or against the idea as a WHOLE.

 

Well all the WBC leaflets and documentation about the pilots said that they were piloting the concept of a 20mph limit for residential roads generally.

 

But doesn't the conference detail say that it is being held here so people can see what 'we' (ie Warrington) has already done or are doing ? Maybe I read that bit wrong so I will re-read

 

Warrington is adding to the build up of experience on 20mph limits. The results of its 20mph pilots will be of interest to other local authorities and may save them the delay involved in pilots.

 

I thought you said earlier that this has already been done though and the decisions have already been made.

 

Whilst a decision has been made to roll it out as a default for all residential strrets (similar to what the DfT has recommended), any phase of roll out will still require the TRO's and all associated consultation on the individual roads to to phased in.

 

Peter

 

Well they used the web site and the Warrington Guardian, and of course it ended up on this website. What more do you propose they do? House to house enquiries?

 

 

Baz J

 

Its great to have a mum of 88. In my experience people who get to that very good age do so because they are active and keep walking and dare I say it, even cycling.

 

Lower speeds helps the aged get around and down to the shops. It should be encouraged and we can all play our part in making those streets a little more welcoming for the elderly.

 

Give her my regards

 

Rod

[Bazj]

Rod,

 

I will pass on your regards..... however your clever attempt at dodging the point still doesn't hide the fact that "consultation" to you and the Council, means not telling people what the real motivations behind a scheme are...... just putting an idea on a website and then telling "certain" people about it does not count as being a consultation.

 

In order for full consultation to take place on such an important issue should have included a letter to EVERY house in the town telling the public what the intentions are and inviting objections or support.....

 

But lets not let true democracy get in the way of a whacky idea eh??

[Peter T]

Rod. What Baz. said.

 

How many people in Warrington have a computer, broadband, or read the Guardian?

 

It is always assumed that people are striving on a daily basis to find out what is going on. That is rubbish. The majority expect to be informed by the council/councillors of any changes being mooted that will have an effect on the Town and Residents.

They keep boasting about consulting, but only pay lip service to it.

 

Whilst it is agreed that certain residential areas "might" benefit from 20mph zones, the problem lies in the blanket approach and the councilc inability to get things right.

 

Perhaps we now need a minority grup to "bring back 30" on the grounds that 20 is not helping the carbon footprint and is encouraging jay walkers.

 

By the way, my Mother is 97 in May and has never ridden a bike in her life.

[Evil Sid]

Perhaps in anticipation of the councils roll out we should all travel around the town at twenty.

 

I noticed that the figures quoted are for road with 30mph limits but an average speed of 29mph or less. What about those roads that are a 30mph limit with an average speed of over 32mph, Chester road springs to mind (residential so under a blanket scheme would become 20 mph). The number of times I am overtaken whilst going down there I often wonder if they have upped the speed limit to forty or if my speedometer is out by a huge amount.

 

I would still like to know though how the 20mph would be enforced and if all forms of transport traversing these limits will be bound by them.

[observer]

wot Baz said.

[Peter T]

SID, that is concern. Highways haven't got the nouse to do it sensibly.

 

Anyone remember the chaos when the taxi drivers drove around at a very slow speed?

You can't have 30 going down to 20 on the main roads through town that are in Residential areas. The traffic will be queuing up to Winwick Island and up Walton Drag. St. Heath is chaos now. Business and shoppers will give Warrington the big detour, but that won't matter as the small number of cyclusts will be happy.

[AdrianR]

I would also like to know how they measure the speed of an offendign vehicle involve din an accident. I know the costs of full accident reconstruction and no way that any council / health authority / police will spend those sorts of sums on EVERY accident.

 

Accordinlgy the evidence used to support the less injuries at 20mph will either be rather subjective and/or based on assumptions and/or based on laboratory conditions.

 

I as part of my job have dealt with the aftermath of literally thousands of car accidents and people being injured from the smallest car park shunt to multiple pile ups on motorways. Speed is but one of many many factors and not necessarily the most important.

 

Accident injuries and their severity are dropping but it has more to do with technological advances in vehicle technology (more 5* NCAP vehicles on the road)

 

Quote from NCAP:

 

5-star rated Euro NCAP cars were found to have a lower risk of injury compared to 2-star rated cars (5-star cars were 10% ? 2.5% lower risk than 2-star cars). For fatal and serious injuries, the difference was 23 ? 8 percent, and for fatal injuries alone the difference was 68 ? 32 percent.

 

However NCAP admit that the current reporting procedures adopted by the police doesnt show the true picture and particular reference to insurance records is recommedned. The 20mph campaign is based on police records only and I again suggest they are inherently flawed as detailed above. (SARAC ii)

[wahl]

Adrian r

 

Of course all the statistics are inaccurate. The method used for collection is also inaccurate.

therefore they can be and are used to "prove" whatever you want them to prove.

So far the cyclists have convinced more people of their worth,but common sense and a close review show they are actually worthless.

[disgusted]

For fatshaft

 

Well most of the people I know both in Warrington and around the country that are campaigning for 20mph limits are drivers.

Most people in the country are drivers rod, very unusual to find someone who doesn't drive.

 

but then you know that, and are trying to muddy the water as always.

 

Put it another way rod, how many of those campaigning for the 20mph limits are cyclists? All of them?

 

 

And how about including pedestrians as road users? Don't they count?

Of course not, they are pavement users. I imagine their opinions of their illegal pavement sharers - the lycra warriors - may make embarrassing reading for you tho.

[Bill]

I think a whole lot of people are going to be pretty angry when they find out that Rod?s 20mph limit will be adopted on virtually every road in the town.

 

His 80% support figure (which I don?t disagree with BTW) was almost certainly obtained in response to a carefully worded question that conjured up images of residential side roads rather than out main transit roads. Had the question include major roads, then I think the outcome would have been very different.

 

The problem though as I see it is that even though there appears to be only one person pushing this forward, he?s doing it very professionally. One the other side of the coin we have just six individuals in the whole of Warrington who made the effort to object and a much larger virtual group here but it?s just unorganised individuals and will count for nothing with the council.

 

We shouldn't be allowing our council to meet in private with unheard of groups where our civil liberties are at stake. This plan if adopted, will severely impact on transport with potential knock on effects for business. Because of this it should go to a public debate and then be voted on by the public rather than a few wacky councillors.

 

Bill

[disgusted]

^^^Bill has just summed up this whole 28 page debate nicely.

 

Anything you feel is incorrect there Rod?

[Bazj]

..............and cue the stats, kerfuffle and nonsense!!

[Lt Kije]

Nice one Bill

[Dizzy]

I agree too Bill. Maybe you could be the "people's voice "

[rodk]

Bill said :-

 

I think a whole lot of people are going to be pretty angry when they find out that Rod?s 20mph limit will be adopted on virtually every road in the town.

 

Bill, I have repeatedly suggested that 20mph should be the DEFAULT speed limit for residential roads and that exceptions should be determined by the traffic authority based on the users and characteristics of the road.

 

 

let me repeat that...

 

 

the DEFAULT speed limit for residential roads and that exceptions should be determined by the traffic authority based on the users and characteristics of the road.

 

I am not sure how many times I have to repeat this for it to sink in.

 

You know it, I know it, almost every one of the other posters on this web site knows it.

 

So why do you keep conjuring up this idea of every road in Warrington having a 20mph limit. And why is there so much clapping and hollering whenever it is mentioned.

 

You all know that I have referenced the many other local authorities implementing wide area 20mph speed limits for residential roads. In all of these they have adopted the same idea that :-

 

20mph should be the DEFAULT speed limit for residential roads and that exceptions should be determined by the traffic authority based on the users and characteristics of the road.

 

So please, do yourselves a favour and spare yourself all this anguish.

 

 

Best regards

 

 

Rod

[Bazj]

Right on cue...

 

Rod,

 

why are you brow beating Bill so much? He stated that an awful lot of people will be a bit pigged off when they find out that VIRTUALLY every residential road in the town (not all as you keep misquoting) (and yours and most peoples idea of a residential road differ somewhat too as you know)

 

You then say.... "20mph should be the DEFAULT speed limit for residential roads and that exceptions should be determined by the traffic authority based on the users and characteristics of the road."

 

which to me and every other non-bike riding normal person means that WBC will roll out a blanket 20mph limit because they don't want to get into the costly job of playing about and deciding what roads can have 20, 25 or 30mph speed limits..... My God man; these bloody fools in the town Hall take 6 weeks to decide what tie to wear to a council meeting; so what chance do we have on them doing something sensible for once??

 

WBC will roll out the 20mph speed limit on "Virtually" every road they can in Warrington; and you will either become a very popular man for championing it or you will become as popular as Hitler at a bar mitzvah

and won't be able to walk the streets of warrington without a crash helmet on!

 

I wish you luck!

[wahl]

Baz j states WBC will roll out the 20mph speed limit on "Virtually" every road they can in Warrington

 

Apparently this is true as the council ignore the enormous cost and agree the ltp3 transport nonsense. this is a plan that will completely clog up Warrington and drive business out of the town.

[observer]

Not if we all just ignore it!

[Dizzy]

Rod... I wont quote all your bit's above and question them individully as I am too tired so maybe tomorrow

 

BUT in the mean time DO YOUR GROUP/THE COUNCIL HAVE A MAP which shows which roads are in certain areas are likely to become 20 zones in the broader roll out and which are likely to remain at 30 mph or above.

 

If we all had a better idea of which roads were to be included/excluded then maybe we wouldn't all be having to guess and draw our own conclusions..... you never know IF WE ALL KNEW YOUR/THE COUNCILS ACTUAL PLANS we may see the sense in it after all.

 

I presume each area will have be split by voting ward for ease and YOU must have an idea of the roads so please tell us !!!! ......call it another form of consultation, public involvement, democracy, transparency and sense

[Peter T]

The council don't recognise those words.

[Dizzy]

I just tried to find them myself but this WBC report from 2002 came up in the search

 

http://cmis.warrington.gov.uk/cmis5/Document.ashx?czJKcaeAi5tUFL1DTL2UE4zNRBcoShgo=4cY7QIjpLQRqnoMv8INLlRYoT4p6nW5JMkEVL4cCz6xtjJQ%2FHQnxeQ%3D%3D&mCTIbCubSFfXsDGW9IXnlg%3D%3D=hFflUdN3100%3D&kCx1AnS9%2FpWZQ40DXFvdEw%3D%3D=hFflUdN3100%3D&uJovDxwdjMPoYv%2BAJvYtyA%3D%3D=ctNJFf55vVA%3D&FgPlIEJYlotS%2BYGoBi5olA%3D%3D=NHdURQburHA%3D&d9Qjj0ag1Pd993jsyOJqFvmyB7X0CSQK=ctNJFf55vVA%3D&WGewmoAfeNR9xqBux0r1Q8Za60lavYmz=ctNJFf55vVA%3D&WGewmoAfeNQ16B2MHuCpMRKZMwaG1PaO=ctNJFf55vVA%3D

 

No idea why the link is so long so applogies for that and although it only applies to 20 mph zones outside schools the same must clearly apply to other roads and maybe more so.

 

Anyway a rather interesting to read what the council and police said at the time about the two existing 20 mph limits outside two schools !!

 

 

3.0 EFFECTIVENESS OF CURRENT SCHEMES

 

The following information has been provided by the Police. The two current sites are:

 

3.1 Bridge Lane - Appleton

 

This is now working well. The introduction of the speed humps has reduced speed but it has required diversion of the bus route to avoid this stretch of road. Initially the 20 mph zone was introduced without the speed humps and this made no impact on motorists? speed. The Police found that every car was exceeding the limit - some by as much as twice the limit. When the speed humps were introduced the speed came down..

 

3.2 Lodge Lane - Bewsey

 

The Police have received ]numerous complaints that vehicles are not adhering to the speed limit - most from the Bewsey Residents Association. There are no speed humps to physically control the speed and because it is a very short stretch of road for the limit then it is not possible to use speed enforcement.

 

The conclusion drawn is that the introduction of 20mph limits can work but there must be some other measures taken in conjunction to 'enforce' the limit and the most effective way to do this is by traffic calming methods.

 

4.0 ENFORCEMENT

 

4.1 The benefit to having a length of 20mph speed limit immediately outside a school entrance may not have any significant effect on speeds or accidents unless it is at least 500m in length. Apart from the uncertainty of whether drivers will observe the speed limit, they may subsequently speed up significantly in an area where children, in relatively large numbers, will be approaching or leaving school. Motorists compliance with speed limits indicated by signing is very poor. The enforcement of speed limits is undertaken by the police but the police can not be

everywhere.

[Dizzy]

The council don't recognise those words.

 

... but I was hoping that maybe Rod and his group who are pushing all the buttons do

[Bazj]

I would really like Rod to define what will be regarded as a residential road. It is something which never seems to be fully explained because a residential road is technically any road with a house on it. If that is the case that will be every road in Warrington surely?

[rodk]

Dizzy

 

We have long held the view that short, isolated 20mph provide nowhere near the compliance that you get with area-wide limits which provide benefits in the home streets for the maximum of drivers. They also provide consistency and people get used to 20mph as the norm rather than the exception.

 

Short, isolated 20mph limits also endorse going faster on the rest of the network.

 

The report you reference is some 9 years old and was produced before town 20mph limits (with exceptions) were being contemplated.

 

With regard to your previous post about what would be the exceptions, I do not know what the council is considering. I know that DfT guidance makes a distinction of "major through routes".

 

With regard to the roll-out of 20mph areas, then I it seems to make sense to do this in phases and keep the areas as contiguous as possible and bounded by roads which are exceptions.

 

You may also be interested in Baroness Newlove?s recent report and its support for local communities to decide speed limits for local roads.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12888206

 

 

 

Regards

 

 

Rod