Syrian immigrants

[P J]

Errm, hang on; no one is "forced" to leave refugee camps; they leave because they are attracted by avarice; and to a point one can't blame them. The villains of the peace are the EU and it's Governments who cannot protect EU borders in line with international law; neither can they contribute sufficient aid to ensure folk stay in the camps. I'm sure the money is there, but we'll never see a Gov prepared to gather it in. Meanwhile, the only thing they seem capable of gathering in, are refugees; or rather economic migrants. Still waiting however for this grand plan for dealing with the exodus 

Governments have no solution, you have no solution yet you expect me to have one.  As I said, the world has loads of money, just that truly avaricious people have most of it and they don't want to part with any of the billions.

[P J]

And why on earth would anybody feel it necessary to get away from this idyllic lifestyle?

 

[observer]

Oh yes, I do have the solution, and it merely requires the vigorous application of international law by the EU: IE: NO economic migrant allowed into the EU, those found, deported asap; that gets rid of most of them. Genuine refugees to be returned to the camps in Turkey, Lebanon & Jordan; and that those camps be properly funded by the UN. In the meantime, agreement by the UN to eradicate ISIS once and for all; which means co-operating with the Russians to do so. If and when ISIS is eradicated, sensible talks on the future of Syria and Iraq, by the US & Russia. The bleeding hearts don't have a plan, as planning for the future isn't their forte; merely the emotion of the moment and the running around like headless chickens.

[P J]

That is so comical.  You actually believe that is the answer and that you and apparently you alone on this planet can solve this whole mess.  You don't have answers, you have megalomania.

[observer]

Nope, the Hungarians are applying this approach now, as are several other EU States, not forgetting Australia of course, where this approach has ended attempts to get there illegally by boat - so it has worked already. The bleeding hearts have no answers whatsoever, merely hysterical hand wringing and misplaced emotion.

[P J]

What Hungary wants to do and what it will do aren't one and the same.  Which other EU countries are copying them?  Australia has had 5 prime ministers in 4 years, the last one ousted loved to boast how he stopped the boats.  He didn't, they still come but are paid off and forced onto others.  They are also not dealing with the huge numbers of refugees that Europe and the Middle East are doing.  Megalomaniacs will never see when they are wrong so you carry on Napoleon, get in touch with the UN and sort it all out for the world.

[Antisthenes]

I don't think it's comical that he has a suggestion. Isn't that the idea of a forum? I think I wrote a few weeks ago that there isn't a solution. That doesn't mean we can't work towards one. Someone earlier commented on the Dublin Convention and how someone should stop in the first safe country. My understanding is: the Dublin Convention applies to countries in the EU only, hence the desperation to barge through perfectly safe countries such as Macedonia and Serbia in order to land in Hungary or Austria. Registering as an asylum seeker (which covers pretty much any non-EU citizen who's feeling a bit miffed about their lot nowadays) is no guarantee of being given citizenship or the right to stay in any EU country except for Sweden, it seems, particularly as the absolute majority have no basis of claim whatsoever. However, most will never leave, as they become embroiled in interminable legal wrangles over the decision and probably with the advice of one of our legal friends have a child giving them a claim to remain under Article 8 of everyone bar the indigenous population's Human Rights Act. In a nutshell, that's why these poor souls seem to think they have an absolute right to enter successive countries illegally and demand to stay. If any of them do get citizenship, which will take a couple of years, they then have the right to travel freely around the European Economic Area to exercise their Treaty Rights - to live and work in any member country and to take as many family members as they wish, whether they be 'European' or otherwise, along with them under the terms of the EU's freedom of movement rules.

With that in mind, I think that withdrawing from the freedom of movement element as soon as possible is critical to the UK's chance of retaining any cultural identity beyond the next generation and a half. Needless to say, I shall grasp with both hands the only opportunity I will get in my whole lifetime to exercise a democratic right and vote to leave the EU. I am sure we will go into that on another board later in the year.

So, not a solution per se, but we need to put the umbrella up now it's started to rain.

PJ - I agree there should be no need for a law to encourage ill-informed and cerebrally challenged parents from poisoning their children but we live in an imperfect world, and up until fairly recently senior MP's used to lobby for the tobacco industry. That's on another board though.

Obs - Genuine refugees are in the camps already, but the powers that be need to get together to resolve the strife in their homelands soon or the West should start pumping money into the surrounding countries to build proper infrastructure for the medium term. We can't expect people to stay there for an indeterminate period and not imagine that they'll make a beeline for the riches of the West.

Sorry, if I've missed anything.

[observer]

Paid off, re-directed; call it what you will; the Ozzies stopped them getting to Oz, so intervention worked; we should be doing the same off Libya and Turkey. Several EU countries have implemented border controls, despite Shengen, including Germany; so I guess their politicians know where their breads buttered !   Ant: A very rational post, which raises the importance of the only chance we'll get to exit this insanity, the EU referendum. As for the war; it's fairly obvious that ISIS needs to be eliminated, before anything diplomatic can be achieved.

[Coffee]

I often wondered what I would do if I was in a camp in Turkey or else where, would I risk going across the sea in a rubber boat, would I put my child (if I had one) on one, the answer is yes, the risk is not that great! However would I leave my mother, my sister, my nieces, my child in a war zone and flee, II would like to think my answer would be no.

 

Having said that I am thankfully not in that situation. This situation was caused by Germany and Sweden not Europe and the problem we have is this situation is unmanageable and not sustainable, were are we going to get the houses, the jobs (not forgetting there is a lot of unemployment in Europe), the teachers, doctors and so on to look after the people who get here, we don't have enough as it is. Europe could probably cope with these already here but there are many more coming and these that make it will want to bring over their families. Maybe most will be happy in crap conditions and a handout for now but what about in years to come?

 

 Another problem is these people are Muslims and we already have problems with different views, life sty;es, beliefs - not politically correct but it is a factor.

 

We maybe need a system that is fair and manageable, which means maybe a work visa system for a year or two, with these engaged in crime deported even if there is war or persecution in their country.

 

PS: smart phones are essential in the camps as the aid agencies use them to distribute food vouchers, give out news and instructions

[asperity]

Some interesting statistics:

 

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/6996925/3-18092015-BP-EN.pdf/b0377f79-f06d-4263-aa5b-cc9b4f6a838f

[Antisthenes]

Asp - I hope you're not suggesting that the BBC and our hand-wringing liberal media has been misleading us?

[asperity]

I'm sure I couldn't possibly comment.

[asperity]

But the BBC can:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32929962

[P J]

But the BBC can:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32929962

win,win

[Antisthenes]

In what respect? We are also told that the UK has too many old people and we're not having enough children to become workers to pay for care and pensions etc, therefore we must have immigrants to take up the slack. There appears to be a presumption that they won't stay on to require similar care themselves, or else our population will grow exponentially and furthermore, the indigenous population will gradually be replaced. It is effectively a Ponzi scheme with people. The blame for the lack of public funding does not lie at the feet of immigrants however. Various schemes and loopholes exist for the wealthiest individuals and companies to evade tax. George Osborne could change that, but fewer of the aforementioned would fund his party. It's a bit difficult to know what to do. I reckon we will get more and more immigrants, and a status quo for the wealthiest, ie, not paying tax all over the world.

[Coffee]

Taking in immigrants because they might be needed in 20 years time makes as much sense as filling your freezer for Christmas 2020 in 2015

[observer]

The last Labour Gov used the term "managed" migration; which implies that the host country has control over events and decides just who it grants asylum to, in the interests of it's economy, including demographic projections. Alas, far from orderly or organised management, we've had chaos in the face of a tsunami of humanity heading for "a better life" in Europe. IF the existing rules and laws had been complied with, this exodus would have been halted in Lesbos and Lampedusa, with properly funded processing camps dealing with asylum applications, at these points of entry. Failed asylum seekers then being deported, and genuine refugees accepted. Unfortunately, led by Frau Merkel, the EU totally ignored "the rules" and invited these economic migrants in, which has had the knock on effect of increasing the flow even further.  The last emergency conference of EU interior ministers is now talking about applying the rules properly, by strengthening EU border checks and processing, and properly funding the camps in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan; as I suggested on this board; so it seems common sense is more common than we thought, and not Napoleonic !.

[Bazj]

Just watched a video where they were interviewing migrants in a centre in Holland.... the main guy being interviewed was complaining that they weren't getting enough meals a day (only two) , that the portions weren't hot or large enough, they weren't being given any clothes or money and that the internet speed wasn't fast enough :)

 

They were wanting language courses (although they spoke English, they wanted to lean Dutch) 

 

One of those interviewed also said "I want money yes.... because I want smoking and telephone my mother in the Syria....."

 

Obviously they have now forgotten about that terrible war and have already started with the demands

You couldn't make it up!

[Davy51]

Don't we need to be providing proper, cards in full time jobs for our own population instead of zero hour preferred by employer options ,before saying we need workers from abroad who are often coming over to take up highly illegal,low paid ,untaxed work which is often on behalf of Tory gangmasters.

[observer]

Watched a gang of immigrants hand washing cares today; I'm guessing they were immigrants as their work rate was phenominal ! Just wondered though, whether they get paid the minimum wage, whether they get visits from tax/vat inspectors etc ?

[P J]

Watched a gang of immigrants hand washing cares today; I'm guessing they were immigrants as their work rate was phenominal ! Just wondered though, whether they get paid the minimum wage, whether they get visits from tax/vat inspectors etc ?

 

So many things wrong with this comment its hard to know where to start.  You are guessing that workers are immigrants because they work so hard?  Do British people never work hard?  Basing your bigotry on your guess you then question whether their employer, who could be British, French or Mongolian for all you know, is a criminal and underpaying his/her workers.  Then you go on to question his/her tax and vat record.  All because you guess they may be immigrants.  What an absolute pile of inflammatory, xenophobic, narrow-minded clap trap.

[observer]

Lighten up Jack. I said "I was guessing". I didn't question THEIR tax record, merely whether they or anyone else nowadays has inspection visits.

[P J]

So an utterly pointless post, except to feed your xenophobia. FYO people still do get vat inspections.  

[Antisthenes]

Anecdotally, a car wash not far from me pays £2.50 per hour to its Romanian staff who, so it seems, work very hard for their pittance. That they work hard is good, that they are exploited by a cash-based industry obviously is not, despite earning perhaps five times what they would at home - hence the movement of so many people. I doubt the number of HMRC inspectors has increased, but the number of car washes certainly has, therefore difficult to police, so likely to end up in the 'too hard to do' tray. Furthermore, all of the staff are likely use street lighting, NHS, police, fire service etc without (given the desperately low income) contributing through tax, NI, council tax and the like. Think about that next time you take your car for a soap and rinse.

[P J]

How do you know what they are paid?  If you have this kind of information, why haven't you reported it instead of whinging on a local forum?