P J Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Asperity - if you really want to sound credible then you should not use Ancient Rome or Cicero as your mantra and I speak as a classics combined graduate. Rome only grew rich on the capture of other states and the subjugation of it's populations and enslavement of them, usually into domestic households or galleys and that is how it's Treasuries grew rich. Does that sound familiar...? Rome was top heavy with Senators and Consuls who took what they could and lived like Gods - again familiar...? Rome did not need to give aid to foreign lands as they ruled most of them and as for hard work this was done by the vast majority of the people in their Empire whilst the well - off lived the life of luxury. Does this ring any bells too...? If not it should as it bears a horrible resemblance to today... Rome's decadence and wanton lifestyle of the ruling class was ultimately it's downfall and not the necessity for a balancing of the books or a restraining of the public purse or curtailment of foreign aid (though I do agree curtailment of foreign aid should be done under the present "austerity" programme). Rome's downfall also has strange parallels with today in that we are ruled apparently by an elite of exclusive public schoolboys who have been members of "The Bullingdon Set", mingle with newspaper phone hackers and none of whom seem to have degrees remotely relevant to their ministerial portfolios. Decadence at it's height before a fall... Thatcher's winning of three elections is nothing other than a statistic. Statistics have been defined as " lies, damn lies and statistics". She is not fit to live in the same room as Attlee, who had only one term in office and achieved far more of constructive benefit to humanity than Thatcher ever would have done . She may have won three elections but that does not prove that her policies were right. People are not described as sheep for nothing and history is now beginning to judge the results of her policies in a less favourable light. Sadly her legacy lives on despite her death and if that could be imagined, in an even worse form under the present government. I have a picture of her with my mother who she had reduced to penury through making her sell her house for Alzheimer's care. Finally you 've probably gathered I don't like your views and I have also seen that you like to insult people who disagree with you both as a class and individually. If you choose to do that to me I will take appropriate action which will include seeking to have you removed from the site. People come on here as a form of relaxation, not to have views rammed down their throat that are now beginning to fly in the face of history's judgement and be called names. Good Day and a Happy New Year. Peridot Peridot = Liam Neeson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 I speak as a classics combined graduate. Hmmm posh & university educated then? I had to settle for working on building sites and factories for 18 hours a day - and still voted tory.... (although no longer I hasten to add; as all of the mainstream politicians have sold this country out for a few Euros and a first class train ticket to Brussels) Rome only grew rich on the capture of other states and the subjugation of it's populations and enslavement of them, usually into domestic households or galleys and that is how it's Treasuries grew rich. Does that sound familiar...? Are we talking about the EU here Peridot? Rome was top heavy with Senators and Consuls who took what they could and lived like Gods - again familiar...? Yep.... definitely sounding like the EU to me.... Rome did not need to give aid to foreign lands as they ruled most of them and as for hard work this was done by the vast majority of the people in their Empire whilst the well - off lived the life of luxury. Does this ring any bells too...? Sounds like our contributions to the EU and us getting bugger all in return except for bureaucracy and doctrine If not it should as it bears a horrible resemblance to today... Indeed it does..... Rome's decadence and wanton lifestyle of the ruling class was ultimately it's downfall and not the necessity for a balancing of the books or a restraining of the public purse or curtailment of foreign aid (though I do agree curtailment of foreign aid should be done under the present "austerity" programme). Rome's downfall also has strange parallels with today in that we are ruled apparently by an elite of exclusive public schoolboys who have been members of "The Bullingdon Set", mingle with newspaper phone hackers and none of whom seem to have degrees remotely relevant to their ministerial portfolios. Decadence at it's height before a fall... The Bullingdon set, like it or not, have been democratically elected under our system of voting. The real rulers in the European Parliament have not.... a bit like having all of your Roman chaps fornicating and pontificating but then having the Gods above them telling them what to do on a day-to-day basis! Thatcher's winning of three elections is nothing other than a statistic. Statistics have been defined as " lies, damn lies and statistics". She is not fit to live in the same room as Attlee, who had only one term in office and achieved far more of constructive benefit to humanity than Thatcher ever would have done . She may have won three elections but that does not prove that her policies were right. People are not described as sheep for nothing and history is now beginning to judge the results of her policies in a less favourable light. Sadly her legacy lives on despite her death and if that could be imagined, in an even worse form under the present government. I have a picture of her with my mother who she had reduced to penury through making her sell her house for Alzheimer's care. Unfortunately and sadly, selling property to pay for elderly care was not just a Thatcher thing. The 13 years of Labour government never changed a thing. When my elderly mother suffered a stroke and a paralysing fall, social services were overjoyed to hear she owned her own house and recommended a home straight away.... thankfully, I had EPOA and refused and ensured she stayed in the home she had lived in for 85 years until she died. It wasn't easy and required a lot of my time for over 4 years in staying over, forgoing holidays, providing cover etc. but at the end of the day she was my mum and she did a damned sight more than that for me when I was growing up so it was the least I could do.... Finally you 've probably gathered I don't like your views and I have also seen that you like to insult people who disagree with you both as a class and individually. If you choose to do that to me I will take appropriate action which will include seeking to have you removed from the site. People come on here as a form of relaxation, not to have views rammed down their throat that are now beginning to fly in the face of history's judgement and be called names. The last bit just made me laugh..... I just imagined the forum thread police coming to get me 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 I think it is fair to say that a major reason that political parties can stay in power for multiple terms is not because the are necessarily popular with the electorate ,that their policies are sound or that they have successfully brainwashed the voters ,it is more that voter apathy leaves a government in power ...the CBA attitude of the man in the street. Maybe bodies at the polling booths would have stopped Thatcherite policies succeeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Maybe compulsory voting like they have in Australia would be a good idea.... but with a "none of the above" option... but then again we may be even worse off as 99% would probably vote for none of the above; and then what would happen???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeborn John Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 In all my years I've never seen a fist fight over politics, but plenty about 22 overpaid morons kicking a pigs bladder around a field, that's the man in the street for you. Compulsory voting, that's a scary thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 I vote for Perry Do as pompous prat of the year so far, such delusions of power on a ten member forum, correction nine member forum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Asp Hope you change your mind forums work better when their is discussion and debate and occasionally some ranting all done in the best possible taste. Live long and prosper 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Nice to see the cut and thrust hasn't diminished in my absence ! But for my half penny worth, I would suggest that the revelation that Scargill was correct in his warning as to the planned pit closures merely confirms that all Governments lie to suit there purpose and deceive public opinion - so nothing strange there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sha Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Well, what seemed like a thread developing into a lively debate went somewhat off course! Asp, you can't really be going to jump ship because someone doesn't like your views? and Peridot, you can't really expect to prevent anyone disagreeing with you by threatening to have them removed from the forum? Both of you have the 'post Christmas grumps' perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sha Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Davy51, Do you think there may be a possibility that a clear and positive alternative might have stopped Thatcherite policies succeeding? I too used to think it was all down to public apathy but after questioning many people why they didn't vote the picture became clearer. Ordinary working class people do not believe that there exists a political party that will represent their interests. It is a widely held belief - and not unfounded. Their perception is that the conservatives are solely for the rich and the lib dems are for the so called middle classes so neither will be popular with them. This leaves just the labour party as a possible major contender. In years gone by Labour would have picked up their vote and indeed still expect to pick up their vote. The reason they don't vote is not through apathy -but through anger. Knowing that whoever gets into power, it will make no real difference to their lives makes them feel powerless and resentful, knowing that Labour expect their vote (when they will do nothing for them) makes them feel angry. As the only means of expressing their dissatisfaction and anger is by withholding their vote from the labour party - who they feel have long since deserted them- this is what they do. It is not really a no vote but in fact a vote of no confidence and a kick in the teeth to those they feel have let them down. The only occasions they would express themselves on an official ballot paper would be if there was a very definite difference between party policies such as the poll tax v no poll tax. When as you will remember, they turned out in droves. Politicians are just too far removed from what is going on in the lives and minds of the ordinary folk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I think the idealist view is that the average voter is angry that his vote will not be heard but apathy is more of a reason , the thought that someone else will do all the necessary voting on your behalf, then you read in the morning paper that your party of hate is still in power because there was only 27% turnout & a dozen minority extremist parties put a dent in that. Talking about apathy, that is why the unions became too extreme & signed their own death warrants.....the leftie shop stewards & would be political extremist union leaders of certain unions used lack of moderate worker participation at union meetings to get their aims across to the usually extremist bunch that turned up religiously to carry the required motion. Unfortunately, over the years ,the unions made enemies & the best way to weaken unions is to get rid of their members & if that means closing mines ,factories, steel works etc the so be it & that is one reason the nationalised industries were broken up & privatised & that is one reason agency workers are the employee of choice for many firms because it prevents unions springing up & challenging anything a company wants to impose on its staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sha Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 The point though Davy51 is that to the ordinary person there is no particular party of hate. And as I said the anger is to the labour party for the perception that they have been let down. As I said, there was a time that I couldn't understand why people wouldn't vote but now I can understand their way of thinking. They have nothing to gain and nothing to lose whoever gets into power. Should a party arise that offered them a voice and better living conditions then they would turn out in droves. It baffles me really considering that the poorer folk represent the vast majority of the population that politicians don't try to win their vote. It wouldn't even cost much as they are generally easily satisfied. Looking back into history Eva Peron - corrupt as the Peron's were - realised that giving the poor something was politically beneficial. She didn't even give them much - just a little, but she gave them a little respect and a little hope. They thought her a saint. She knew how to win them over because she understood them, she was one of them.Today's politicians are planet's apart from ordinary folk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Too many amature politicians in this country, unfortunately most of them are attempting to running the country or are in the opposition parties!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Too many amature politicians in this country, unfortunately most of them are attempting to running the country or are in the opposition parties!. Cannot agree, sadly most of them are in power, and have no idea about need. As they were all born with a silver spoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 How can you run the country in an opposition party? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I think a major problem too with the rise of Thatcherism being tolerated was that the public still had fresh memories of the rise of the bad parts of trade unionism that actually made the public victims of industrial action , such as in strike blighted sixties & seventies & the winter of discontent ,then the crowd was carried along with the Falklands campaign that helped Maggie back into power even though things at home were not that great.Really speaking, at that time Labour were seen as a washed out alternative & stood no chance & probably the last old style Labour man ,John Smith, was elected leader but tragically was unable to prove his worth. The New Labour that emerged basically followed the watered down Thatcher doctrine & as you say have offered no alternative to the Tory party. I don't want to mention our friends across the North Sea , but it is sad that Britain's main alternative to what we have could be the right leaning UKIP, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Unfortunately, politics is about getting elected, rather than doing profound things once elected; it is thus short termist by nature and calculated to feed the fickle nature of public aspiration, which generally demands instant gratification and solutions to complex issues. It is also calculated to play to electoral potential; hence Cameron pandering to the pensioners (because they actually vote), and playing to the so-called "floating voter" (because they make the difference in those marginal constituencies that win elections). Part of the problem also, is the development of career politicians, who know what is good for us, but have never experienced the everyday lives of those they purport to represent; hence the London -centric and luvvie mind set that divorces these "professional" politicians from the great unwashed. Hence, we've never had any in depth debate on such issues as immigration, the EU; our political constitution or the cost effectiveness of our political systems, basically because they know what's best for us and turkey's don't vote for Xmas. Thus we stumble from crisis to crisis, with sticking plaster solutions that ignore the long term interests of the Nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peridot1 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I've just lost a long post which took me ages to type and will not be re - typing it. I suspect sabotage... Peridot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Sorry Lt. I'm confused, what part of my post don't you agree with?. My previous post. Too many amature politicians in this country, unfortunately most of them are attempting to run the country or are in the opposition parties!. Your previous reply. Cannot agree, sadly most of them are in power, and have no idea about need. As they were all born with a silver spoon. Basically I'm saying that in my opinion they are all a bunch of well paid idiots that to me don't appear to know what they are doing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Peridot.... there is no way any other member can sabotage your posts on here. Paranoia maybe ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 peridot, I suspect user incompetence. ???????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I've just lost a long post which took me ages to type and will not be re - typing it. I suspect sabotage... Peridot Well if someone did that to one of my posts; I'd have words and get them banned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Sorry Lt. I'm confused, what part of my post don't you agree with?. My previous post. Too many amature politicians in this country, unfortunately most of them are attempting to run the country or are in the opposition parties!. Your previous reply. Cannot agree, sadly most of them are in power, and have no idea about need. As they were all born with a silver spoon. Basically I'm saying that in my opinion they are all a bunch of well paid idiots that to me don't appear to know what they are doing. Kije is tory bashing again as he always does.... but often forgets that there are also over 20 millionaires in and around Ed Millibands shadow cabinet. NONE of our mainstream politicians are worthy of a vote.... none of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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