Covid Vaccine Passports

[asperity]

Apparently polls are showing a large enthusiasm for vaccine passports to be mandatory for going to pubs, restaurants, sports venues, public transport, shops etc etc. Have people taken leave of their senses or are they that desperate to get their freedom back that they will agree to any restriction to attain it - a bit crazy isn't it? If this was a good idea then why haven't we had health passports before, showing that we have been vaccinated against TB, Cholera or any other infectious disease, or tested free of HIV? If this came in would we have check points in the town centre, at the bus and rail stations, could we be stopped in the street by a policeman demanding we show our papers? In my opinion this is an attempt to introduce ID cards by the back door and the government should be dissuaded from going down this road.

[Observer II]

Although I would support ID Cards  for security reasons; I certainly don't support this idea of vax passports, because I believe it's based on a myth that if your vaccinated you cannot be contagious.  A vaccine just makes one resistant to the virus, so that symptoms are reduced and less serious, it doesn't stop you transmitting or receiving it, especially if it's a new strain.  In their lemming like stampede to return to so called normality, Gov and people are grasping at this straw, which will lead imo to another surge in infections, a triumph of hope over sense.   😷

[asperity]

I don't know about you Obs, but I already have more than enough photo ID to get by, and I certainly would be against a form of ID attached to my PRIVATE medical records which is what a vaccine passport would be. Last time I checked the UK was still a free country and the idea that I would have to prove who I am to get into a pub is frightening!

[Confused52]

1 hour ago, Observer II said:

Although I would support ID Cards  for security reasons; I certainly don't support this idea of vax passports, because I believe it's based on a myth that if your vaccinated you cannot be contagious.  A vaccine just makes one resistant to the virus, so that symptoms are reduced and less serious, it doesn't stop you transmitting or receiving it, especially if it's a new strain.  In their lemming like stampede to return to so called normality, Gov and people are grasping at this straw, which will lead imo to another surge in infections, a triumph of hope over sense.   😷

You need to look at it from the other side this time. If you have received the vaccine you are not going to have to be hospitalised or die because of going into a pub. If only vaccinated people enter pubs the increase in R will be reduced because  the number of cases cause will be only 40% of what it would have been so clearly if something needs to close it will not be pubs. Because people will want to go to pubs this will act as an encouragement for the waverers to get vaccinated.

The I'm British so I don't need any ID is fine as far as it goes but it doesn't hold water with voluntary ID's cards for anyone who has the fortune not yet to look over 25 when they get to 18. When pubs started that malarkey they opened themselves up to the present proposal albeit unwittingly.

Issuing such cards with a validity date which is short will ensure that the proposition will not endure beyond next May. The key is getting the idiots in Europe to realise that their stupid following of the precautionary principle to signal their virtuous caring Governments is actually killing many more than it saves and they should get on with using what they disparagingly call the "ALDI" vaccine.

[asperity]

That's all very well Con, but how about looking at it from the point of view that if you've had the vaccine you can go to the pub you are not going to be hospitalised or die because of it. If you haven't had the vaccine you can still go to the pub because you're not going to be a threat to the vaccinated.

As for your idea about having a validity date, do you really believe that, once the government have forced ID cards on us, they're ever going to get rid of them? If so I've got a nice statue in New York harbour to sell you.

[Bill]

Tricky one isn’t it?

The thing is if other countries decide to implement it where does that leave us in terms of international travel if and when it ever returns? I’d be in favour of seeing something like this particularly as a short-term solution to help with the fight against the virus. I know it’s not fool proof and doesn’t mean you can’t be infected, but it does show that you’ve been sensible and represent a lessor risk to those around you than a covidiot.

As for being asked for proof before going into somewhere like a pub, well that’s going to be almost impossible to implement and the measures we had previously will have to do although I think they should be checked for compliance a bit more often. To some extent, the nature and type of a pub can determine the age group that uses it. Maybe I’m going to have to look for an old man’s boozer where kid’s wouldn’t be seen dead drinking in.

 

Bill 😊

[Confused52]

6 minutes ago, asperity said:

That's all very well Con, but how about looking at it from the point of view that if you've had the vaccine you can go to the pub you are not going to be hospitalised or die because of it. If you haven't had the vaccine you can still go to the pub because you're not going to be a threat to the vaccinated.

As for your idea about having a validity date, do you really believe that, once the government have forced ID cards on us, they're ever going to get rid of them? If so I've got a nice statue in New York harbour to sell you.

The idea that Government wants to curtain freedom and hang on to power like that is a hang over from Tony Blair and the left wing entitlement idiots. No they are not ID cards and they will just fade away except for international travel. That is why they may be needed to appease the demand for summer holidays in safe places for the middle classes. 

Your way of looking it is exactly the opposite way to how you have approached every other discussion, remember the responsible for looking after yourself mantra. Actually the problem with the not vaccinated is they (and the vaccinated) are more likely to be asymptomatic carriers pass it on to other unvaccinated people who could infect younger folks with long covid. We are now told that there were a very large number of people suffering long covid in January.

[Observer II]

During our trial of isolation, the fact is that a significant portion of the population have ignored the rules with regard to isolating at home if they tested positive, some are asymtomatic in any case,  crowds still attend mass gatherings etc; so the idea of some kind of compliance that will make things safe is an illusion imo.   Rather than such gimmicks being used to accelerate relaxations,  the relaxations themselves have to be gradual and cautious - in the case of pubs for example,  spaced tables in outside gardens, with waiter service would be the toe in the water;  but nothing involving crowded internal spaces should be tried till next year.    It's clear that the will to endure has now slackened, and even Whitty now talks about no more lock downs and treating the virus like any Flu, that will just kill about 26,000 per year;  so I guess we'll reap what we sow.   😷

[Confused52]

49 minutes ago, Observer II said:

...  even Whitty now talks about no more lock downs and treating the virus like any Flu, that will just kill about 26,000 per year;  so I guess we'll reap what we sow.   😷

Whitty is just being realistic, I have heard him explain that a zero Covid strategy is impossible ( we are a trading nation with links to the world). He says that there would need to be an acceptance that there will be some deaths but the number is a political decision. He notes that 26000 deaths from flu in the last bad flu year did not even get noticed by the public or media. If the relaxation is slow and careful and travel is carefully and if there are new vaccines ready for variants and fast local productions for new variants there should be no need for more lockdowns. Notice all the if's that the newspaper and radio headlines do not bother to reproduce. We are told repeatedly that it is the rate of new cases and the probability of transmission of new variants that matters. Low transmission and 100% analysis means new variants will spread slowly and with available vaccines they will not be deadly to the vulnerable.

They are spending vast amounts of money on increasing genetic sequencing, building new factories to make new mRNA vaccines on demand and implement a sound scientific response. This is rational grown up behaviour which constant calling for lockdowns is not. The virus will not have gone away by next year it is endemic around the world it will come back every winter for at least 3 more years, maybe more. Universal vaccination and repeatedly is the only scientifically proven response. The government are up for that and all the heartache that there is is getting to the point where we are ready to go into a rolling programme. We will not be there until the end of this year so no holidays and restrictions on spreading the virus until we have levels of cases that lead to politically acceptable levels of death because the vaccine is not 100% efficacious. (Well until someone comes up with Lily's medicinal compound)

[asperity]

2 hours ago, Confused52 said:

The idea that Government wants to curtain freedom and hang on to power like that is a hang over from Tony Blair and the left wing entitlement idiots. No they are not ID cards and they will just fade away except for international travel. That is why they may be needed to appease the demand for summer holidays in safe places for the middle classes. 

Your way of looking it is exactly the opposite way to how you have approached every other discussion, remember the responsible for looking after yourself mantra. Actually the problem with the not vaccinated is they (and the vaccinated) are more likely to be asymptomatic carriers pass it on to other unvaccinated people who could infect younger folks with long covid. We are now told that there were a very large number of people suffering long covid in January.

I still say it's your responsibility to look after yourself so how I've somehow said the opposite by advocating going into pubs (if you feel you're safe to) I don't know.

If being vaccinated is the same as not being vaccinated then what's the point of vaccination. If you want to stay at home for the rest of your life that's fine, but it should be the choice of the individual not the collective. We've done the lockdown bit now, we've done the Save the NHS bit now, we've vaccinated the vast majority of the most vulnerable, so time to get some normality and accept, as we have throughout history until a year ago, that death is part of life.

I believe that there's nothing that a majority of MPs of all parties would like better than ID cards because they are all control freaks underneath.

Incidentally I've no objections to vaccine certificates for international travel, after all we've had that for various diseases for decades and other countries are well within their rights to demand them for visitors.

[Davy51]

In all honesty , the symptoms that are rattled off as covid indicators are no different to what we experience with a common cold & as such are difficult to differentiate.. The problem is how some people react to the symptoms which are generally triggers to cause problems with underlying health issues.

My ex wife, who has many problematic health issues, caught covid while in Warrington hospital with heart & diabetes related problems. What should have been fatal was brought in check within days by steroids & antibiotics with no threat to her life whatsoever.

[Observer II]

Treatment has improved over the last year as medics understand the virus better, but there's no guarantee   😷

[Bill]

Seems we will now definitely get some kind of vaccine passport document for international travel and the domestic version hasn’t been completely ruled out.

They said on telly this morning that Denmark has already incorporated covid status into their existing electronic ID system and that most of the population welcomed it. They said that compared to the UK, the Danes were by and large, far more trusting of their government and because of this there was only an extremely small minority of civil liberties objectors.

I think our politically divided society with its us and them mentality hasn’t helped at all in the fight against this virus. If more people had been willing to trust and followed the government and scientific advice, we’d probably be a lot further forward than we are today and had a lot less fatalities.

   

Bill 😊

[Observer II]

For foreign travel, all that's required is a stamp in your passport.  But the idea of a domestic passport is frankly based on the myth that vaccinated people can't catch or spread the virus.  All the vax does is builds anti-bodies that reduce the severity, and provides an excuse to prematurely relax restrictions.    😷

[Bill]

That’s true but the idea does have some merits. They said in Denmark that businesses broadly welcomed the idea as a means of getting back to normality a bit quicker and also it provided an increased incentive for people to get the vaccination. If we had this now, our pubs and other businesses could be gradually easing their way back rather than the stampede that a fixed opening date creates.

I know I’d much rather sit in a pub knowing that everyone in there has a lower probability of being infected and if some can’t get in at the moment for whatever reason then tough, but life’s never been perfect. There’s no guarantees that even with this you’re not going to catch anything but life needs to go on and I’ve no intentions of spending the rest of my life isolating.

The only downside to this that I can see is that it would blur attempts to accurately measure the effects of a staged release. What we’re doing now is correct but everything takes so much longer.

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II]

The premature relaxation of crowding folk into enclosed spaces will, imo, just result in another flare up, vax or no vax; so in a sense, the vax is irrelavent and is merely being used as an excuse; the wise old birds will stick to their nests and continue to avoid the flock.    😷

[Bill]

But even the experts suggest that the virus is possibly not going away for at least several years and may never fully disappear. They also say that with preventative measures, it might be possible to keep the infection and mortality rates similar to that of the normal seasonal flu and we’ve lived with that all our lives without getting silly about it. I think at some point, the annual flu jab might become a combined affair giving protection from both covid and flu.

 

Bill 😊

[asperity]

I've declined the flu jab for at least the last 10 years, so I suppose now I'm going to be labelled a granny killer 🙄. All the years you've all been visiting pubs, going to football/rugby matches, concerts, cinema or restaurants have you ever wondered what deadly diseases the people around you might be harbouring? I very much doubt it, so why are you now demanding they provide proof that they have been vaccinated against a disease that isn't all that deadly for the vast majority of people? Time to come out from behind the sofa and restart your life, which involves admitting that there are risks to be endured in life just like there were before this madness took over.

[Confused52]

22 minutes ago, asperity said:

I've declined the flu jab for at least the last 10 years, so I suppose now I'm going to be labelled a granny killer 🙄. All the years you've all been visiting pubs, going to football/rugby matches, concerts, cinema or restaurants have you ever wondered what deadly diseases the people around you might be harbouring? I very much doubt it, so why are you now demanding they provide proof that they have been vaccinated against a disease that isn't all that deadly for the vast majority of people? Time to come out from behind the sofa and restart your life, which involves admitting that there are risks to be endured in life just like there were before this madness took over.

I absolutely have wondered. I realised long ago that getting colds and flu were linked to dates of trips to London. I did indeed look at the behaviour of fellow passengers on the train and the tube. I also started being careful to wash my hands before touching my face or eating food at Euston station on the return trip. It did then reduce the incidence of infections over winter.

[Bill]

Nobodies demanding anything Asp but if anything does get done, the PM made it very clear that it wouldn’t be applied to any of our vital or necessary services.

And I really don’t know how you can say that the worst pandemic the world has seen in over a hundred years isn’t really that bad just because it doesn’t affect everyone.

 

Bill 😊

[asperity]

What is the recovery rate Bill, 50%? Anyone would think so but it's actually around 99% so no, it isn't "deadly". Very nasty if you get it bad, and fatal if your body can't defend against it, but for the vast majority of us it really isn't that bad.

As for Boris "making it very clear", we've been hearing that mantra for over a year now and it's wearing very thin. The government has allowed itself to be painted into a corner so that every step it makes is going to be judged wrong by the baying mobs.

[asperity]

18 minutes ago, Confused52 said:

I absolutely have wondered. I realised long ago that getting colds and flu were linked to dates of trips to London. I did indeed look at the behaviour of fellow passengers on the train and the tube. I also started being careful to wash my hands before touching my face or eating food at Euston station on the return trip. It did then reduce the incidence of infections over winter.

I've carried hand sanitiser with me for use when I use public transport, and pub toilets, for over 5 years now. There's some manky B's around that's for sure!

[Davy51]

Disease & contagion are part of society & you generally can't be part of society without the risks to your health that also provide antibodies to build up your immune system .

Perhaps the only way to avoid this covid is to withdraw from society & live a self sufficient ,feudal lifestyle....hunting your own food, growing your own crops & probably withdraw from the government payments that have kept us all as safe as possible through the pandemic, but which can't go on forever. There comes a time to return to the rat race & throw caution to the wind.

[Observer II]

After you !😷

[asperity]

It's OK Obs, you can stay behind your sofa, we'll let you know when it's safe to come out 😉