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NATO war with Russia -


Observer II

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With western media parroting NATO propaganda ad nauseum, it's hard to get at the truth of things; the latest accusation being that the Russians have sabotaged the Nordstream pipelines into Germany. Now, given these pipeline originate and are fed by the Russians, why would they blow it up, when they can just turn the taps off ?   No, this will be the work of the CIA, desperate to escalate matters into nuclear confrontation.   Zelenski was prepared to agree terms with the Russians, post Istanbul meetings;  but was quickly disabused of such thoughts, following a visit by Boris Johnson, to encourage commitment to total war, with the supply of NATO weapons and money.   And what happened to all that equipment and money?  Well, some of the equipment has been siphoned off and sold on the black market; and no doubt the billions in cash, will be salted away in the bank accounts of Zelinski and Co, in their eventual exile.   Meanwhile, the peasants in the West will suffer through the Winter, in order to pay for their Government's failed  economic sanctions on Russia.      😠

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Elementary my dear Watson,  Biden is on record saying the pipeline will cease to function - why ?  Because Germany will then HAVE to switch to US supplied gas and oil; for which he's prepared to see the Germans rely on firewood this Winter or freeze.   Meanwhile they're prepared to fight the Russians to the last Ukrainian.  😠

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On 9/28/2022 at 5:17 PM, Observer II said:

Elementary my dear Watson,  Biden is on record saying the pipeline will cease to function - why ?  Because Germany will then HAVE to switch to US supplied gas and oil; for which he's prepared to see the Germans rely on firewood this Winter or freeze.   Meanwhile they're prepared to fight the Russians to the last Ukrainian.  😠

I take it that you are unaware that Biden made this supposed remark about Nordstream 2 before the invasion when Germany had precisely zero LNG terminal capacity to accept US gas. They have since started five floating terminals but I do not know when they will go onstream. Suggesting that the US holed all four pipelines mirrors the Kremlin line spouted by Maria Zacharova. My own view is generally that whatever is said by Peskov, Zacharova or Medvedev is a lie until the contrary is proven. Telling the "Russian Truth" is their job and the Russian truth only exists when it is different from everyone else's truth. That is the nature of the "multipolar world" that Putin espouses.

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QUI BONO ?   The US has been opposed to Nordstream ever since it started, as they don't want Europe to be dependent on Russia in any way.  The Germans proceeded with the project, which was about to come on stream, but would have provided Russia with the leverage to get sanctions removed, they had the tap to turn it on or off; so why would they blow up a pipeline that had cost them $billions to build ?   Following mass demonstrations in Germany to get the Nordstream switched on, no doubt the Yanks felt compelled to shut it off - by other means.  The Yanks are determined to degrade Russia, by fuelling the Ukraine conflict and ensuring Zalinski doesn't negotiate with the Russians.  The problem is, economic sanctions haven't worked, and in fact have backfired; bringing the possibility of blackouts in Europe this Winter, to the detriment of the ordinary people, who are getting wise to the Machiavellian nature of the US, which is desperate to retain it's supremacy as the World's number one super-power.  Alas times up on that, the only question is, will the Yanks reckless antics, lead to WW3 or not ?        😠

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  • 5 weeks later...

Well, it seems the Russians believe it was the Brits who sabotaged the NordStream pipeline, probably SBS acting on US orders.   So I guess it's now open season on undersea cables and pipelines, which suggests more blackouts etc over the next few years.   Our politicians are leading us to Hell, still, it should be warmer there !    :rolleyes:

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10 minutes ago, Observer II said:

Well, it seems the Russians believe it was the Brits who sabotaged the NordStream pipeline, probably SBS acting on US orders.   So I guess it's now open season on undersea cables and pipelines, which suggests more blackouts etc over the next few years.   Our politicians are leading us to Hell, still, it should be warmer there !    :rolleyes:

Close, they just said it was the Royal Navy. That doesn't mean they believe or will act further. Their aim is to waste more time in the Security Council and drive a wedge between us and the EU. Your assumption that it might be true in any way is deeply depressing. The Russians are just lying criminals and the ace liar that said it was Maria Zacharova who lies for Lavrov. Stop being gullible. 

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Methinks tis you being gullible,  if you believe the propaganda of the western MSM.   There is absolutely no reason for the Russians to blow up a pipeline that they built for $billions, and for which they had an on/off switch in any event.   There is however a good reason for the Yanks to do it, as it severs German and EU dependency on Russia, and switches it to the US.   It's an admission that the US is just using allies like toilet paper, to be thrown away after use.  The Ukrainians could have had a settlement back in March, but were persuaded to continue fighting by the US and UK, at a huge cost in the lives of their soldiers.  This is about the Yanks clinging on to the idea of their neo-liberal hegemony over the globe, a myth that has finally been busted;  but it won't stop them from making us freeze this Winter to support their myth.  The political class in the West has called this all wrong and we will suffer for it - whether it's a cold Winter or a Nuclear one.  Maybe, the Russians got this info off Liz Truss's mobile phone. 😉    😠

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well so far it was the russians as did it.

no it was the ukrainians as did.

it was the cia as did it

it was the brits as did it

it was the sas as did it under american influence.

it was the martians as did it

about the only ones who seem to be blameless are greenpeace so maybe it was them as did it......:rolleyes:

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Observer

If you say we’re all gullible here for only believing what the western media say then surly you’re just as gullible in only believing the Kremlin. I think we’re all grown up enough to realize that in wartime situations, the media on either side is going to portray events in favour of support for the home country. Every country does this, including the BBC, and while words might be chosen carefully to imply things, I believe most draw a line at outright lies.

The facts are that no country or organization has owned up to doing this and as far as I know, aside from speculative comments, neither have offered any concrete evidence or made fact based accusations. The truth will eventually come out but until then both sides will try their best to try and discredit each other.   

You may think you know better than everyone else here but I’d ask that you choose your words a little more carefully and show a little more respect for those who see things differently.

 

Bill 😊

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We had all this throughout the cold war, so nothing new -  there's around 40% electoral opposition to Putin, with about 15% active opposition from pro-western liberals; people know what they can and can't do, the majority are more interested in getting on with life, rather than politics; so if the standard of living is improved they're happy - same in China.  We on the other hand, have the illusion of freedom and democracy, but with a political elite that ignore us, with two Parties that are the cheeks on the same bum.   :rolleyes:

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Quoting Sky news at 11:06 30/10/22

Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said the Kremlin is ready to negotiate if the West "fully takes into account the interests" of Russia, according to state-controlled news outlet RIA Novosti.

He said Western leaders would also need to offer "some serious approaches that will contribute to defusing tensions".

Kremlin press secretary Dmitry Peskov made similar comments today, saying Vladimir Putin and Joe Biden could "discuss Russia's security guarantees" but that such talks would require US willingness to return to "the state of December-January". 
Back in December, the Kremlin drafted agreements and sent them to NATO and the US. 
 
An independent observer would note that Russia completely ignores going to war with Ukraine and invites the US to behave in the same way as Russia and ignore the sovereignty of Ukraine. I make no other comment and I think noting the fact is sufficient. RIA Novosti is a Russian approved News outlet.
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1 hour ago, Observer II said:

Just like NATO ignored the sovereignty of Libya, Serbia, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan - just in case folk want to apply balance.   😉

You should recall that NATO's involvement in Afghanistan was a mandate from a UN Security Council resolution. The involvement in Iraq was after attempts to get Security Council agreement on acting in pursuance of a SC resolution being vetoed by Russia. Russia too was and still is involved in Syria.

Serbia, well actually Bosnia and Herzegovina, as IFOR implementing the Dayton Peace Accord a under Security Council resolution. NATO involvement in Libya was also under a Security Council resolution. Action in Ukraine has no security council resolution and respecting sovereignty subject to the UN charter is a key part of the UN charter. 

The Russian view of equivalence is skewed according to the objectives of the day and has no bearing on historical truth. The MSM and Russian sources quote those views without subjecting them to analysis; an example of the false balance exhibited by the MSM in general and Russia's predisposition to telling lies until their population believes them. To the Russians 1984 is a textbook and not at all a cautionary tale. 

 

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Iraq was based on the false claim that Saddam Hussein had WMDs,  although why WMDs should make a difference eludes me;  I would think any third world Nation today would deem them essential in detering  a US invasion, as the self appointed world policeman, committed to a "rules based" hegemony of the globe - their rules of course.  The reality of course is that the US wants to remain the uni-polar arbiter of World affairs; but alas that is now coming to an end, unfortunately the Yanks will defend their position to the last Ukrainian, then the last European.   If nuclear weapons are used in Europe, I doubt whether the Yanks would risk their homeland by a full on strategic exchange, thus leaving us holding the baby.      :rolleyes:

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just got to laugh at the double speak of Western politicians - Sunack for instance, blaming Putin for a Ukrainianian missile that landed in Poland killing two people or blaming Russia for our current economic woes.   The reason for our energy crisis is our collective economic sanctions on Russia which have backfired on us, so a self inflicted mess.  If they cared about our own people they'd call off all sanctions on Russia and commit to a European settlement. Alas under US pressure that's not likely soon,  but will happen eventually when Russia takes control of Ukraine.    :rolleyes:

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How the heck can that be double speak Obs? As far as I know, Mr Sunack isn't firing barages of missile at anyone neither is he trying to blame Putin for all of our financial woes.

I don't quite know how to put this Obs, but you'r views on this subject are so far out of line with public opinion that you're comming across as someone that if you met in a pub, then you'd move to a different table. I can agree with you on many things and I don't want to fall out with anyone but I think I speak for most of us here when I say this constant anti-west comunist retric is tiresome and killing this forum.

Carry on like this and you'll be the only one left here, but at least you'll have the last word.

 

Bill 

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If you wish to remain brainwashed by our politicians and MSB, fine;  I prefer rational analysis of the situation.  The reason for our energy crisis is the self harm caused by our sanctions on the energy rich Russians.  The latest scare of a missile landing in Poland, was flagged up by the Ukrainians as a Russian attack on NATO, clearly to bring on WW3;  when the reality was a Ukrainian ground to air missile, possibly deliberately fired in the wrong direction.  The Ukrainians, Poles and Baltic States can't wait to get NATO involved in a hot war, indeed Poland has thousands of their soldiers in Ukrainian uniforms, active in Ukraine - but you won't be told that in our MSM.  Suggest you watch Scott Ritter, Col McGeggor, Alex Mecouris, Redacted etc, on Youtube, if your interested in truth rather than propaganda.  btw. Russia is no longer a "communist" state.     :rolleyes:

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Obs, I am glad you favour rational analysis but to an unbiased observer it doesn't show.

The people you quote as sources all receive pay-checks from Russian State Television (Russia Today). That story about Polish troops originated on TASS (Russian Press agency - it was debunked by Reuters. Russia isn't a Communist state as you say but Bill didn't say it was, rather he accused you of pedalling anti-West Communist rhetoric.

As for the missiles that landed next to tractors in Przewodow I don't know where they came from even if you think that you do. Jens Stoltenberg said the initial view was that they likely came from Air Defence in Ukraine. He didn't sound certain. Ukraine should, and probably will, be allowed to, check and see if they need to apologise. As I understand it older S-300s (like Ukraine's) are fired in pairs but with different trajectories so if they both miss an airborne target they will land in different places. The two missiles in Poland were close together so it needs investigating and not just believing any initial view. It may be possible to do more detailed identification from the wreckage, I will wait and listen.

 

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TBH in my view the denials that the missiles could have been Russian seemed to be too thick on the ground as if the West wanted to avoid any confrontation by calming the atmosphere in the area.

 

Meanwhile in the liberated region multiple civilian graves have been found with bodies showing possible signs of torture.

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Thankfully, the saner elements in NATO were quick off the mark in calming the matter down;  otherwise it would be "article 5" then WW3, which is what Ukraine is after, as they must realise by now, it'll be all over by Xmas.  As for war crimes, it's a two way street and no one will be prosecuted.  :rolleyes:

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