Does boiling water kill the virus ?

[Observer II]

The reason I ask, is the issue of PPE shortage -  if gowns and gloves are disposed of after each use with a patient,  are they incinerated or can they be disinfected and laundered ?    When I've been for blood tests, the nurses rightly bin their gloves after each patient, which sounds like a huge amount of gloves being used, which suggests no surprise at a supply shortage.  😷

[Davy51]

I have mentioned this previously , that may be a better option is for fabric masks & gowns to be worn instead of paper disposable ones. Obviously,no one foresaw there would not be enough ppe stocks to fight a pandemic  ,but it seems that disposable is the way to go in modern times. At least fabric can be sterilised & reworn.

[asperity]

Perhaps the stories of shortages of PPE and of nursing staff being overworked would be more believable if things like this weren't posted on social media:

https://youtu.be/aZY7EOMZ754

I'm not having a go at nurses or the NHS by the way, but there's something not quite ringing true here.

[Observer II]

Not too busy then ?    😷

[asperity]

Apparently not, and plenty of PPE on view 🤔

[Milky]

On 4/15/2020 at 4:06 PM, asperity said:

Perhaps the stories of shortages of PPE and of nursing staff being overworked would be more believable if things like this weren't posted on social media:

https://youtu.be/aZY7EOMZ754

I'm not having a go at nurses or the NHS by the way, but there's something not quite ringing true here.

I am not sure what your whinging about, so they are letting their hair down and some tension out, what is wrong with that?

 

[asperity]

9 hours ago, Milky said:

I am not sure what your whinging about, so they are letting their hair down and some tension out, what is wrong with that?

 

I'm not "whinging" about anything, but you have to admit that it's poor PR and doesn't fit in with the narrative of the undermanned, overworked NHS without any PPE. Or maybe it's Tory propaganda?

[Davy51]

I wonder if microwaves would kill the virus on disposable ppe . Would have to be a big microwave though.

[Observer II]

.    😷   If they can sterilize  surgical instruments, one would think they can do the same with PPE ?      😷

[asperity]

Trump asked the question a few weeks ago as to whether face masks could be washed and re-used, and of course he was ridiculed. A few days later someone came up with a method of cleaning the masks. I'm not talking about the linen masks by the way, but the more substantial rubber ones with perspex screens.

[Observer II]

Would have thought the linen masks could be boiled - I spray mine with disinfectant before and after use, gloves too.      😷

[Davy51]

There seems to be a greater presence of masks for the public on news reports of foreign countries than in the UK. We even see them being handed out by police & security officials. I haven't seen any on public sale over here & i think a viable alternative will probably have to be a gimp mask.

[Observer II]

There was a guy on youtube showing how to make one, with a napkin and elastic bands.    😷

[Evil Sid]

Maybe we should start watching some of the old cowboy films. they had no problem with face masks, apart from getting shot that is.....⚰️

[Observer II]

Seen quite a few wearing scarfs - so plenty of cowboys. Thought burkas might become popular !      😷

[Observer II]

According to a Doctor on TV;  washing at 60 degrees can kill the virus, but I'd suggest boiling makes it certain. In which case; gowns and masks could be re-used and a shortage avoided.   😷

[Evil Sid]

Thing is obs you would have to make sure that the people who handled them after sterilization wash are not contaminated. Then the people who iron and fold them would have to be virus free. The people who pack them ditto and so on down the chain.

i suppose the same could be said for disposable apart from the packing which is usually automated. but there is still the distribution side to consider.

 

[Observer II]

Just an added factor to deal with Sid;  better than complaining about a shortage.   Apparently the Gov held a pandemic exercise in 2016,  which is amazing given their slow performance to-date.   They identified the issue of PPE supply and decided on a just in time supply chain rather than stock piling option; suppose they didn't spot that in a global pandemic the rest of the world would be gagging for PPE.    Seems to me that there are a host of lessons to be learned out of this, in terms of our reliance on global supply chains and foreign labour.       😷

[asperity]

I'm still mystified as to why it's the government that's supposedly responsible for ensuring that we are prepared for a pandemic rather than the massively funded Public Health England:

Responsibilities

We are responsible for:

• making the public healthier and reducing differences between the health of different groups by promoting healthier lifestyles, advising government and supporting action by local government, the NHS and the public
• protecting the nation from public health hazards
• preparing for and responding to public health emergencies
• improving the health of the whole population by sharing our information and expertise, and identifying and preparing for future public health challenges
• supporting local authorities and the NHS to plan and provide health and social care services such as immunisation and screening programmes, and to develop the public health system and its specialist workforce
• researching, collecting and analysing data to improve our understanding of public health challenges, and come up with answers to public health problems

 

And of course the NHS itself which employs, at great expense, procurement managers who should be keeping tabs on what equipment the NHS staff requires and what stocks of said equipment the NHS actually has. So after this emergency has been resolved shouldn't there be a massive shakeup of the bureaucracy of the NHS and PHE and a change in the priorities away from the eating, drinking etc habits of the populace and more towards more important things like being prepared for emergencies such as the one we are having just now?

[Confused52]

1 hour ago, asperity said:

And of course the NHS itself which employs, at great expense, procurement managers who should be keeping tabs on what equipment the NHS staff requires and what stocks of said equipment the NHS actually has. So after this emergency has been resolved shouldn't there be a massive shakeup of the bureaucracy of the NHS and PHE and a change in the priorities away from the eating, drinking etc habits of the populace and more towards more important things like being prepared for emergencies such as the one we are having just now?

Indeed so Asp. I have a serious concern that deciding to use a JIT procurement system they allowed suppliers from China to be part of it. This is significant because the two SARS viruses and most variants of flu came from China and they clearly thought that the Chinese state would not just pull the plug in its own interest! I was interested to find that the NHS has pandemic stocks to draw down on but it just doesn't include gowns. 

[Observer II]

I suppose you expect the NHS to order, police and fund a lock down ?      😷

[Confused52]

32 minutes ago, Observer II said:

I suppose you expect the NHS to order, police and fund a lock down ?      😷

Pardon! The lockdown is a political choice properly the province of Government. Ensuring the right supplies can be made available in preparation for the top risk in the UK risk register of a global pandemic, which is also likely to start in China, is the job of PHE/NHS as they say themselves. Your point is silly.

[Confused52]

11 hours ago, Observer II said:

According to a Doctor on TV;  washing at 60 degrees can kill the virus, but I'd suggest boiling makes it certain. In which case; gowns and masks could be re-used and a shortage avoided.   😷

WHO have issued guidelines for re-use which PHE are adopting where appropriate  due to an ongoing global supply shortage due to Covid-19, they are also public as is the statement that the PPE shortage is expected to last until June. Cotton gowns can be washed at 60-90C. Medical masks need to be sterilised by tested procedures, which are listed by WHO but respirators can't. The NHS appears to use fluid repellent gowns from China which are in sporadic supply so they need to use those only where they are essential it seems, which is in ICU from the description i.e. where there are Aerosol Generating Procedure. Medical masks are the type needed in care homes, but they too are in global short supply with their moisture repellent outer layer. The WHO guidance is called "Rational use of personal protective equipment for coronavirus disease (COVID-19) and considerations during severe shortages" and can be found here https://apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1274340/retrieve if you want to read it. the key word in the title is perhaps rational.

[Observer II]

41 minutes ago, Confused52 said:

Pardon! The lockdown is a political choice properly the province of Government. Ensuring the right supplies can be made available in preparation for the top risk in the UK risk register of a global pandemic, which is also likely to start in China, is the job of PHE/NHS as they say themselves. Your point is silly.

it's a National emergency in which one expects HMG to take charge and co-ordinate all the organs of the Nation to the end of protecting public safety, and no individual organ of State, such as the NHS is an island, but part of the whole. To suggest anything less, is frankly inane. Thankfully, we've got a Tory Gov that hasn't placed it's usual ideology before that task and is proceeding to do just what is expected of Government.   As for the PPE issue, a Doctor has purchased PPE directly from China (of all places) using her own money; again something HMG should have planned for following their exercise in 2016, when reliance on international sourcing should have been deemed unsafe.     😷

[Confused52]

38 minutes ago, Observer II said:

it's a National emergency in which one expects HMG to take charge and co-ordinate all the organs of the Nation to the end of protecting public safety, and no individual organ of State, such as the NHS is an island, but part of the whole. To suggest anything less, is frankly inane. Thankfully, we've got a Tory Gov that hasn't placed it's usual ideology before that task and is proceeding to do just what is expected of Government.   As for the PPE issue, a Doctor has purchased PPE directly from China (of all places) using her own money; again something HMG should have planned for following their exercise in 2016, when reliance on international sourcing should have been deemed unsafe.     😷

Your position is impractical and wrong headed. The organ of state that deals with these matters IS the NHS directed in England by PHE. The arrival of a national emergency did not make the civil servants at the Dept. of Health and Social Care in the procurement of PPE suddenly better than the massive procurement department of the NHS. It is the NHS that knows the product need and has the relationships and not the civil service. That the government is trying hard is not in question given that they have in double quick time established a completely new supply chain for Social Care PPE with a separate delivery mechanism and warehousing support from the MOD.  You are in effect making the same criticism of the supply chain as me but for you it is HMG which is culpable for the mistake made by NHS procurement after 2016 whereas I can't see how you can expect such micromanagement of plans to come from Whitehall when the NHS are and were the experts.