Red versus greens.

[Davy51]

We seem to be in the jaws of a full frontal assault on animal farming & meat consumption from the vegetarian & save the planet brigade. Apparently ,meat consumption leads to global warming & eventual destruction of the planet. Surely ,there is plenty of arid land in the world that could be irrigated ,even by desalinated water to provide this shortfall in vegetation. It must be within the capabilities of world powers to find a solution which would also make many countries self sufficient in food & less reliant on charitable payments ,at the same time giving them a place on world markets. If ,as we are told ,sea levels are rising due to global warming ,what better way to use that water than by reclaiming some of the world's deserts for food  production & reforestation to combat the effects of global warming ?

[asperity]

More global warming/climate change nonsense. We should be increasing the amount of CO2 (AKA Plant Food) in the atmosphere. There's already evidence that the planet is greening thanks to enhanced CO2 levels.

[Observer II]

Like the Remoaner doom and gloom over Brexit;  the tree huggers are into a full blown operation fear - what amused me was the idea that animal farts are causing global warming !   Well, if that is the case, surely the answer would be to kill everything that farts, including 7 billion humans !    😆

[asperity]

There are links in this blogpost on how to cook your daily allowance of meat:

https://velvetgloveironfist.blogspot.com/2019/01/cooking-with-lancet.html

[Milky]

The world's deserts are shrinking, the saharahn desert has srunk by 700,000 Square kilometers in the last 30 years. 

According to the 'experts' we are facing a food shortage yet you do not need to be an expert to se how farming efficiency could be increased even in places like France. 

[Davy51]

2 hours ago, Observer II said:

Like the Remoaner doom and gloom over Brexit;  the tree huggers are into a full blown operation fear - what amused me was the idea that animal farts are causing global warming !   Well, if that is the case, surely the answer would be to kill everything that farts, including 7 billion humans !    😆

I think i would be one of the first to the humane killer.

[Confused52]

Well I have looked for the word meat in the actual report the BBC is crowing about. It only comes up one to point out that production has risen since 1961 

"

A1.4. Data available since 1961 shows the per capita supply of vegetable oils and meat

has more than doubled and the supply of food calories per capita has increased by about one third

(high confidence). Currently, 25-30% of total food produced is lost or wasted (medium confidence).

These factors are associated with additional GHG emissions (high confidence). Changes in

consumption patterns have contributed to about 2 billion adults now being overweight or obese

(high confidence). An estimated 821 million people are still undernourished (high confidence).

{1.1, 1.3, 5.1, 5.5, Figure SPM.1}

Can't see the need to panic there.

[Evil Sid]

Global warming/climate change is due to (insert some plausible reason here). It can be proved by (grab a few facts from google that support plausible reason). it can be countered by ( some idea i have come up with that sounds reasonable and will make me money in the long run).

And there you have it your very own climate change/global warming bandwagon kit.🤭

By the way has anybody checked to see if the sun has got any warmer, just a thought like.🤔

[asperity]

Actually Sid, now you come to mention it, sunspot activity during the present cycle is very low/non existent leading many experts to believe that we're in for some very cold  years to come. Which will leave the "Global Boring" gang with some reassessing to do. Stock up on jumpers, yesterday's power outages are a sign of things to come.

[Observer II]

Having watched a fantastic prog like "SERENGETI" ,  shows how nature designed the system - the plant eaters (which probably produce most gas) are kept at sustainable population levels by the availabilty of food and the activity of carnivores, in other words the food chain.  Unfortunately, the animal that has secured the position of top of the food chain, appears to have an insatiable appetite for earth's resources, in it's quest for "growth";  and the more humans reproduce, the more they exploit the capacity of the planet.  So whether we become vegans or not, the basic problem is, there are just too many of us.  

[Evil Sid]

Soylent Green anybody? 🤫

[Observer II]

Afraid that's the way it's heading Sid;  unless nature does it for us, with a post antibiotic purge.

[asperity]

5 hours ago, Observer II said:

Having watched a fantastic prog like "SERENGETI" ,  shows how nature designed the system - the plant eaters (which probably produce most gas) are kept at sustainable population levels by the availabilty of food and the activity of carnivores, in other words the food chain.  Unfortunately, the animal that has secured the position of top of the food chain, appears to have an insatiable appetite for earth's resources, in it's quest for "growth";  and the more humans reproduce, the more they exploit the capacity of the planet.  So whether we become vegans or not, the basic problem is, there are just too many of us.  

Unmitigated garbage Obs.

People have been pushing that line for well over a hundred years. If there was any truth in the "planet can't support any more people" rubbish the human race would have starved to death long before the socialists/communists tried to do the job post 1917.

[Observer II]

Any given region can produce a given amount of food, depending on weather conditions, which in turn governs the size of population it can sustain; therefore finite rather than infinite.  The reason Homo Sapiens migrated out of Africa in the first place, and occupied every corner of the planet, was the never ending search for food sources. Modern technologies allow us to maximise food production,  but we still have episodes in some third world regions where population exceeds the ability to produce sufficient food, hence the periodic starvation episodes, well advertised by charities.  As population increases, so will consumption, to unsustainable levels - a fairly obvious observation I think.

[Confused52]

58 minutes ago, Observer II said:

Any given region can produce a given amount of food, depending on weather conditions, which in turn governs the size of population it can sustain; therefore finite rather than infinite.  The reason Homo Sapiens migrated out of Africa in the first place, and occupied every corner of the planet, was the never ending search for food sources. Modern technologies allow us to maximise food production,  but we still have episodes in some third world regions where population exceeds the ability to produce sufficient food, hence the periodic starvation episodes, well advertised by charities.  As population increases, so will consumption, to unsustainable levels - a fairly obvious observation I think.

Human behaviour is different from that of animals in that population increase is known to be suppressed by increases in longevity and social development. Your assumptions that population will increase inexorably is known to be in error and not supported by UN predictions. The notion of inexorable growth is the flawed Malthusian premise that has caused inordinate damage over the hundred years to which asperity referred above.

[Davy51]

What is amazing is that all these climate change facts are "proved" from records that only go back about 200 years when the earth has been around for billions of years. I should imagine the earth's cyclic changing tilt on it's axis will affect the climate periodically. Maybe we are just travelling through earth's natural cycle  over which we have & never will have control.

[Observer II]

2 hours ago, Confused52 said:

Human behaviour is different from that of animals in that population increase is known to be suppressed by increases in longevity and social development. Your assumptions that population will increase inexorably is known to be in error and not supported by UN predictions. The notion of inexorable growth is the flawed Malthusian premise that has caused inordinate damage over the hundred years to which asperity referred above.

Not really Con; animal behaviour is controlled by their surrounding environment and now by human destruction of that environment.   Humans believe they have conquered and can control that environment.  Whilst to an extent, your correct;  but can you really believe that a cultural halt will occur in India or China for example, where in China State intervention has even been tried ?   The presumption that "social development" will correct matters, presumes that the required level of social development will occur, the population is split between extremes of wealth and poverty,  unlikely to be corrected.  As for longevity, that brings an additional time bomb, as insufficient youngsters are available to support the elderly;  as in Japan.   

[asperity]

3 hours ago, Observer II said:

Any given region can produce a given amount of food, depending on weather conditions, which in turn governs the size of population it can sustain; therefore finite rather than infinite.  The reason Homo Sapiens migrated out of Africa in the first place, and occupied every corner of the planet, was the never ending search for food sources. Modern technologies allow us to maximise food production,  but we still have episodes in some third world regions where population exceeds the ability to produce sufficient food, hence the periodic starvation episodes, well advertised by charities.  As population increases, so will consumption, to unsustainable levels - a fairly obvious observation I think.

Just to put your argument in some sort of perspective Obs, take the case of Ethiopia. In 1985 (remember Live Aid? When the whole of Ethiopia was supposedly starving to death) the population was 40,800,000+. In 2019 the population of Ethiopia is 110,135,000+. Either Ethiopia somehow managed to feed a rapidly increasing population or the rest of the world managed to root around their cupboards and feed a rapidly increasing population. Something doesn't add up here, but I'm pretty sure the true story isn't going to be told in the MSM (that's you BBC) anytime soon.

[asperity]

2 hours ago, Davy51 said:

What is amazing is that all these climate change facts are "proved" from records that only go back about 200 years when the earth has been around for billions of years. I should imagine the earth's cyclic changing tilt on it's axis will affect the climate periodically. Maybe we are just travelling through earth's natural cycle  over which we have & never will have control.

Spot on Davy.

[asperity]

2 minutes ago, Observer II said:

Not really Con; animal behaviour is controlled by their surrounding environment and now by human destruction of that environment.   Humans believe they have conquered and can control that environment.  Whilst to an extent, your correct;  but can you really believe that a cultural halt will occur in India or China for example, where in China State intervention has even been tried ?   The presumption that "social development" will correct matters, presumes that the required level of social development will occur, the population is split between extremes of wealth and poverty,  unlikely to be corrected.  As for longevity, that brings an additional time bomb, as insufficient youngsters are available to support the elderly;  as in Japan.   

The extremes of wealth and poverty? Interesting that you should bring that up at a time when evidence shows that, although there is an immense gap between the wealthy and the poor, the poor are being lifted out of poverty at an ever increasing rate where capitalism is allowed to flourish. Not so much where socialism tends to enrich the bien pensants who push the ideology and keeps the poor where they "belong".

[Observer II]

😄   and I thought you were well travelled Asp.   

[asperity]

26 minutes ago, Observer II said:

😄   and I thought you were well travelled Asp.   

I've been all around the world actually, and was in Ethiopia for 4 months in 1982. Not a rich country at the time but it has come along in leaps and bounds since then. Very friendly people, unless you weren't on the opposite side of the civil war of course. The Russians and East Germans were very much to the fore at the time but, of course, once their influence was gone things could only improve.

You don't show any signs of having been outside Lancashire/Cheshire yourself Obs. Do enlighten us, holiday in Spain perhaps?

[Observer II]

43 minutes ago, asperity said:

The extremes of wealth and poverty? Interesting that you should bring that up at a time when evidence shows that, although there is an immense gap between the wealthy and the poor, the poor are being lifted out of poverty at an ever increasing rate where capitalism is allowed to flourish. Not so much where socialism tends to enrich the bien pensants who push the ideology and keeps the poor where they "belong".

Where's the evidence that the global wealth gap is narrowing ?   The evidence suggests quite the opposite - millions of economic migrants from Africa and the M/East heading to Europe for a better life; S/Americans heading to the US.  Meanwhile corporate food giants are buying up land in Africa to export produce to the richest countries; palm trees are replacing rain forest in S/E Asia, to provide palm oil, which apparently goes into everything from toothpaste to ice cream;  and the Amazon rain forest is being cut down for grazing land in order to keep us supplied with burgers.   Supply and demand. 

[Evil Sid]

A lot really depends on what is defined as poverty these days and who does the defining of course.

Also where will come into it.

What is the definition of poverty level in say the UAE as opposed to Ethiopia?

[asperity]

Obs, I didn't say that the wealth gap was narrowing, I said that the poor are being lifted out of poverty at an ever increasing rate. One of the things that is holding them back is the insistance of the green lobby that underdeveloped countries be denied electric power "to save the planet". That is the reason why economic migrants are coming to developed countries - they are being denied the prospect of becoming developed countries themselves by the eco freaks. Hang your head in shame Attenborough.