HS2

[AdrianR]

Bypasses Warrington to the east skirting the back of lymm, hollins green, glazebrook and Culceth. No station in Warrington although we will be able to pick it up south of Crewe.

 

A white elephant? No great loss to Warrington?

[inky pete]

Could have replaced or upgraded the ENTIRE motorway network for that money!

 

And motorways at least have the advantage that they actually take people from where they are to where they want to go.

 

A journey time of 2 hours from central Manchester to central London is all well and good - but only if you happen to be starting in central Manchester and only want to get to central London. In the real world, the people who would use this actually want to get from diverse locations somewhere outside Manchester to any number of places somewhere in the South East generally. The journey into Manchester (at times dictated by the rail timetable) the journey out of central London, and the same again in reverse (again at times dictated by the timetable) will mean that a decent road and motorway network which delivers people directly from start point to destination at a time of their choosing will always be both quicker and cheaper.

[Bazj]

I don't see why it is needed. Shaving a few minutes off the run from Manchester to London is hardly a phenominal achievement. As Inky says, the motorways could provide a much better and more versitile benefit for that kind of investment.

 

The mainline trains to London from Scotland, Manchester etc already give a pretty good service as it is. It is the rural trains that are bad such as the commuter belt trains into and out of the major cities. No doubt there will be many directorships and donations to be had for those in parliament

[Davy51]

Is there really a need to travel so fast ?  If it is for business purposes we have the information super highway which can provide video conferencing at the touch of a button. If the long term plan is to increase the importance of Manchester & Leeds will the Pennines finish up with a major conurbation as the 2 cities expand & eventually join together.

[Lt Kije]

I thought HS2 would be carrying goods as well as people.

[observer]

Doesn't look like it - and anyway, it won't be carrying anything for the next 20 years.

[kevofaz25]

gonna be some seriously upset NIMBYs through Cheshire looking at the proposed route?

[Lt Kije]

Nothing in the last 2 posts that I could disagree with, with the exception of carrying goods

[wolfie]

It will probably be of great benefit to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, also Manchester and East Midlands Airports, but apart from that I agree with the other posts.

[inky pete]

Apparently they're going to be running double decker trains - which means that all of the bridges over the line will have to be significantly higher than the standard for a normal railway line.

 

This alone makes it ideal as a freight line.

 

The current height of bridges over normal UK lines is too low to be able to put a standard articulated lorry trailer onto a flatbed rail wagon and transport it long distances that way. Containers have to be craned off lorry trailers and onto wagons them back again, bulk materials need specialist handling equipment to be onloaded and offloaded at each end of the rail journey.

 

A rail route with high bridges would allow lorries to just drive their trailers on and other lorries to hitch up and collect them at the other end - similar to the way the eurotunnel freight trains work, but without the necessity of transporting the drivers and cab units. A network of such a lines would be FAR cheaper to build than a single 250mph line, and by taking large amounts of goods traffic off the trunk roads would massively reduce journey times for the remaining road users.

[Lt Kije]

Good post inky.

[observer]

Think on balance you have a point Ink - freight should be the priority taking HGVs off the road system, after all, what difference to the overall economy will taking an hour off the London to Manchester train journey for individuals actually make? 

[inky pete]

Even the quoted journey times are a con.

 

They assume a non-stop train all the way from Manchester to London - but they have also announced that there will be stations at Manchester Airport, Crewe, and Birmingham. So at least 15 minutes slowing down, stopped, and speeding up again for each station stop, and there's 3/4 of the time saved by the higher top speed gone right there.

 

Same on the eastern leg from Leeds - stops at Sheffield Meadowhall, Totton for Derby and Nottingham, and then Birmingham.

[Lt Kije]

HS2 has always intended to carry goods as well as passengers, I have not heard anything about the quoted journey times

[inky pete]

HS2 trains will have no goods carriages or wagons.

 

Standard freight trains will only be able to use the HS2 lines during a very limited night time window due to their much lower speeds, and the fact that there's no overtaking capacity built into the lines.

 

Claimed journey times are here:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_2

[Lt Kije]

Most freight travels at night, As to the Journey times they will probably change 100+ times before we get HS2

[inky pete]

I see plenty of freight trains going across the viaduct and through Runcorn station during the day.

 

When a ship's in Garston Docks and the tide's going to turn, there's no waiting for night time to bring a trainload of containers in!

[Lt Kije]

I think you miss read inky, The first word of my post was Most.

 

 Less passenger trains at night, freeing up space on the network for slower goods trains.

[observer]

Think you may find that we need seperate dedicated lines for freight, inter-city and comuter; believe it or not, the current rail system suffers from congestion, especially around the hubs.

[Lt Kije]

Less so in the middle of the night

[inky pete]

Got any figures to support your assertion Lt.? Freight trains and switching yards are subject to the same night time noise abatement constraints as airports.

 

I agree we need dedicated freight lines. Converting pretty much all of the existing intercity network over to increased height freight carriage would be my bet.

 

Lorries should ideally only be on the roads for local runs from rail terminals to end users, that way the roads could work the way they were designed to.

[observer]

Think perhaps the priority should be freight (get it off the roads) and commuter routes (maybe give everyone a seat?).

[asperity]

Two very long freight trains went through Bank Quay (northbound) this morning in the 30 minutes I was there. Not exactly unused capacity then.

[Lt Kije]

Is this ok inky

 

 

The first phase of the HS2 is to build a double track that conforms the to European standards for high-speed train travel. The maximum speed possible on the European structure gauge is 250 mph, although trains on the new HS2 will be initially limited to 225 mph. The HS2 network will also be used for freight movements, but restricted to operate during the night as the speed of freight trains is significantly lower than the passenger trains that will run.

 

 

taken from

 

http://logistics.about.com/od/tacticalsupplychain/a/British-High-Speed-Rail-Network-Hs2.htm

[Freeborn John]

I'm not sure if the actual track gauge has been settled yet, there was a possibility that a wider track would be adopted so they could use existing European high speed trains and carriages.

That would certainly mess things up for freight use.