France Crook & The age of responsibilty

[Cleopatra]

Chief executive of The Howard League, Frances Crook (appropriate name?), has made another stupid statement, saying that the age of criminal responsibility should be raised from 10 to 14 years.

If Frances Crook is not already aware of the fact, I can assure her from personal experiences that kids of 10 years, and younger, are actually aware of the difference between right and wrong and therefor are criminally responsible.

Having caught quite a number of kids of that age stealing from my shop (in the UK) or causing damage, being a nuisance, etc., I have threatened them with the police only to have them laugh in my face and reply with - "Go on then report me! The police can't do anything, I'm underaged!"

If the kids of 10 and younger know that fact then they are old enough to know that they are doing wrong and old enough to be criminally responsible.

By allowing kids in that age group to get away with criminal acts scot free by the time they are 14 years old many of them are already on the pathway to a life of crime.

[algy]

Chief executive of The Howard League, Frances Crook (appropriate name?), has made another stupid statement, saying that the age of criminal reposibility should be raised from 10 to 14 years.

If Frances Crook is not already aware of the fact, I can assure her from personal experiences that kids of 10 years, and younger, are actually aware of the difference between right and wrong and therefor are criminally responsible.

Having caught quite a number of kids of that age stealing from my shop (in the UK) or causing damage, being a nuisance, etc., I have threatened them with the police only to have them laugh in my face and reply with - "Go on then report me! The police can't do anything, I'm underaged!"

If the kids of 10 and younger know that fact then they are old enough to know that they are doing wrong and old enough to be criminally responsible.

By allowing kids in that age group to get away with criminal acts scot free by the time they are 14 years old many of them are already on the pathway to a life of crime.

I agree entirely with what you say Cleo, even John Howard would turn in his grave regarding the way our justice system and the manner in which our prisons operate today, what on earth is happening with this country, there are too many doo-gooders influencing the way that these criminals are being treated, They have obviously never been the victims of these louts, I have, and I assure anyone reading this that I have no forgiveness for the perpetrators who robbed me and my family and even today would take great pleasure in personally flogging them and that includes any being the age of ten years old, the little b******s need teaching a lesson that they will never forget to bring them back into line.

[Stallard12]

Ah, if only the world was as wise as Cleo and Algy, most of our problems would dissappear. I wonder why it can't be? How do you evolve into a person who is so detached from reality? What convoluted thought processes liberals must have. Here's a fact though, only 20% of the US is registered or claims to be a Liberal, so how come they always manage to get the world moulded their way? I'll retire now and take cover !

[Cleopatra]

Who is detached from reality then? Not I bye the bye!

The reality is that criminals of all ages are not being sufficiently penalised because too many do-gooders say, this will not work and that will not work but they never come up with a suitable alternative that will work. Get rid of the do-gooders, the probation service etc., etc., no more gentle approach and punish the criminals as they deserve to be punished and only then will we begin to see a decrease in crime!

[harry hayes]

You make it sound black and white Cleo. Wish it were. It's not that easy for children when their parents, or lack of, have taught them "it's us against them". Cautions and the like sometimes work, but we never hear about them. Think young people are entitled to one error before being stigmatised for ever.

 

I agree with the overall gist of the thread, though.

 

Happy days

[Stallard12]

You may have understood me Cleo, I support your view completely. It would be nice to be charitable Harry, but we are at the point where this trend has got to be reversed. One chance would be fine if the roof then fell in the second time, but it doesn't and they know it.

Tell me is this a just world? A single middleaged ladyfriend who lives in Stalybridge, heard a bunch of kids vandalising her car in her driveway. She tried to stop them, but by that time she had lost her rim covers, her windacreen wipers and her antenae. She knew the kids and went to the local police station to file a complaint. The sargeant told her that she was wasting his time and hers, there was nothing they could do and he left her with these parting words, "If I was you, I wouldn't let any of them know that you have been here and reported them, cos then you'll really have trouble."

[harry hayes]

I know what you are saying Stallard. I belong to the hang em and flog em brigade myself.

 

I was in charge of Warrington's juvenile police department for a number of years. At that time is was one caution and you're out, which has been prostituted over the years to several.

 

Our failures were too many, but the successes way outweighed them and we didn't hear of the offenders again.

 

Many, many years ago a relative , then a boy from an extremely poor war-time family and with no previous form,, broke into premises and received an extremely harsh sentence, which was way over the top in my opinion and the stigma was carried throughout his life.

 

There is a balance in all things, and as I say, I give qualified agreement to the gist of the thread.

 

Happy days

[observer]

Perhaps infanticide should be encouraged?!

[Cleopatra]

infanticide? A bit over the top, what?

[observer]

Slightly, as it would eventually lead to human extinction!

[Cleopatra]

Britons believe parents are losing control of their children, according to a new survey.

 

More than three quarters of those who took part in the BBC Radio 4 poll believed parenting has deteriorated over the past decade.

 

And 81% felt parents should be held responsible for their children's bad behaviour

 

 

Says it all really!

[Cleopatra]

Slightly, as it would eventually lead to human extinction!

 

Not neccesarily. According to your Bible a king named Herod tried it. One baby escaped and grew up and as a result a whole new sect, called Christianity, spread throughout the world.

But that is another story altogether.

[Cleopatra]

Yes, my apolgies Stallard, re-reading your post I realised I had misunderstood.

[algy]

Yes, my apolgies Stallard, re-reading your post I realised I had misunderstood.

As I did Stallard! . Harry I respect you have a wealth of experience of dealing with the youth of the past however society has bred a different type of miscreant that we have breaking the law today, and yes we all have to accept some responsibility for their evolution, that does not mean that the process is irreversible, the "nettle has to be grasped" to bring about some sort of sanity in dealing with this ongoing and escalating problem otherwise the law abiding public of this nation are going to live in abject terror as some have already experienced.

[observer]

"One baby escaped" - and did that "baby" go on to reproduce?

[fugtifino]

I'm sure most kids under the age of 14 know the difference between right and wrong, but with almost 1700 10/11 years olds spending a night in police custody (2008/9), there's something seriously wrong with detention procedures.

 

http://www.howardleague.org/ (see the first report, it's a pdf)

 

a whole new sect, called Christianity, spread throughout the world

 

A sect?

 

I'm no religionist, but surely Christianity ranks higher than, say, scientology.

[Nick Tessla]

The only news story about the age of criminal responsibility I've read recently didn't concern The Howard League but research on the development of the preforntal lobe ,a part of the brain which, amongst other things, is involved in impulse control and is still developing at 10 years old.

 

Do I think NO 10 year old should be held responsible for their actions - I do not.

 

Do i think they should be treated exactly the same as an adult - I do not.

 

When assessing the child should a range of factors be taken into account - I think so.

 

Does the development of the pre-frontal lobe appear to be one of those factors - sounds like it to me.

[Peter T]

Britons believe parents are losing control of their children, according to a new survey.

 

More than three quarters of those who took part in the BBC Radio 4 poll believed parenting has deteriorated over the past decade.

 

And 81% felt parents should be held responsible for their children's bad behaviour

 

 

Says it all really!

 

 

Who did the 19% think was responsible?

[Bazj]

The only news story about the age of criminal responsibility I've read recently didn't concern The Howard League but research on the development of the preforntal lobe ,a part of the brain which, amongst other things, is involved in impulse control and is still developing at 10 years old.

 

Do I think NO 10 year old should be held responsible for their actions - I do not.

 

Do i think they should be treated exactly the same as an adult - I do not.

 

When assessing the child should a range of factors be taken into account - I think so.

 

Does the development of the pre-frontal appear to be one of those factors - sounds like it to me.

 

would you have jailed the killers of Jamie Bulger for life? or let them off lightly like the criminal justice system did by treating them as children as thus not seen to be fully responsible for their actions?

 

Just wondering

[Nick Tessla]

would you have jailed the killers of Jamie Bulger for life? or let them off lightly like the criminal justice system did by treating them as children as thus not seen to be fully responsible for their actions?

 

Just wondering

 

 

As it happens, I think the time they spent in prison was, sufficient, possibly even more than sufficient, for child offenders of that age.

 

I assume your next question will be - "What if it had been your kid that was killed, I bet you'd feel differently"

 

Of course I would - but it does not mean there was any moral justification to those emotionally based thoughts.

[Bazj]

As it happens, I think the time they spent in prison was, sufficient, possibly even more than sufficient, for child offenders of that age.

 

I assume your next question will be - "What if it had been your kid that was killed, I bet you'd feel differently"

 

Of course I would - but it does not mean there was any moral justification to those emotionally based thoughts.

 

Not at all... I was just wondering

[algy]

The only news story about the age of criminal responsibility I've read recently didn't concern The Howard League but research on the development of the preforntal lobe ,a part of the brain which, amongst other things, is involved in impulse control and is still developing at 10 years old.

 

Do I think NO 10 year old should be held responsible for their actions - I do not.

 

Do i think they should be treated exactly the same as an adult - I do not.

 

When assessing the child should a range of factors be taken into account - I think so.

 

Does the development of the pre-frontal lobe appear to be one of those factors - sounds like it to me.

Hows your prefrontal or should I say prefrontal lobe (cortex) developing, Nick.

The prefrontal lobe does not fully develop until around the age of the mid twenties, so Nick would you suggest that any person under that age should not be treated as being capable of being criminally responsible.

[Nick Tessla]

Hows your prefrontal or should I say prefrontal lobe (cortex) developing, Nick.

The prefrontal lobe does not fully develop until around the age of the mid twenties, so Nick would you suggest that any person under that age should not be treated as being capable of being criminally responsible.

 

Not at all but i feel that, with younger offenders, such things as the development of decision making and impulse control, with a physical cause, should be taken into account and assessed.

 

(As an aside, we do not allow those in their early teens to sit on juries, vote, make contracts, buy tobacco and booze etc. activities that require the exercise of judgment so it would seem illogical not to recognise the possibility of restricted pschological factors when it comes to illegal activities.)

[Cleopatra]

"One baby escaped" - and did that "baby" go on to reproduce?

 

We may not know but he did have a relationship with Mary Magdalene However it matters not if he did or he didn't. After that episode, people did go on to reproduce again, as you well know. And after this, you may say what you like because I will not be answering any further posts you make on this subject because I refuse to play your little game, for which you are well known on this forum.

[algy]

We may not know but he did have a relationship with Mary Magdalene However it matters not if he did or he didn't. After that episode, people did go on to reproduce again, as you well know. And after this, you may say what you like because I will not be answering any further posts you make on this subject because I refuse to play your little game, for which you are well known on this forum.

That's the way to treat him Cleo, hide his 'winding handle' he confessed to being a 'wind up merchant' that will spoil his Christmas not being able to take his perverted pleasure out of winding us up!!! :grin: