The religion of peace ?

[Observer II]

Of course it's religion,  there was an incident preceding all this at the main Mosque in Jerusalem, and many of the right wing religious Jewish extremists would like to rebuild the temple of Solomon on the Temple Mount, getting rid of the Mosque.   These are the people building settlements in east Jerusalem, displacing indigenous Arabs.  They are just as fanatical as the Hamas extremists, and are dragging the rest of their population with them.   

[Confused52]

5 minutes ago, Observer II said:

Of course it's religion,  there was an incident preceding all this at the main Mosque in Jerusalem, and many of the right wing religious Jewish extremists would like to rebuild the temple of Solomon on the Temple Mount, getting rid of the Mosque.   These are the people building settlements in east Jerusalem, displacing indigenous Arabs.  They are just as fanatical as the Hamas extremists, and are dragging the rest of their population with them.   

That was used as a pretext but it is much more complicated that. There are fanatics of every sort everywhere but even in Israel with PR they aren't as stupid as you would believe. 

[Observer II]

The current Gov is majority right wing.   

[Bill]

You only have to look at the religious changes that have evolved or occurred during our own lifetimes to appreciate what changes could occur over thousands of years. That’s enough time for most religious stories to become twisted and bent to justify the actions of a particular state or radical extremist group.

It’s my belief that the original religious rules were set out for the good of humanity and worked on the fundamental principle that ultimately we would all be held accountable for our actions throughout life. Maybe we’re due for some kind of second coming where all the worlds leaders will get their heads knocked together. That’d fix things. 😄

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II]

😄     Well, the Archbishop of Canterbury has just been on the News, with the Chief Rabbi and an Imam calling for restraint etc - that should do the job - I don't think !    

[ninearches]

What baffles me is the Israelis have advised the the Palestinians to move south towards Egypt whose border is closed & now the IDF is shelling & bombing that area of southern Gaza & has even damaged the border crossing.

[Bill]

To be fair to the Israelis they didn’t tell them to go there because it was safe but just to get out of the north which definitely will be very unsafe. It did seem a bit off targeting the crossing point but without any confirmation from the Israelis, that could have been a done by Hamas in an attempt to stop people moving. I think with wars we need to take everything with a large pinch of salt.

 

Bill 😊

[Confused52]

1 hour ago, ninearches said:

What baffles me is the Israelis have advised the the Palestinians to move south towards Egypt whose border is closed & now the IDF is shelling & bombing that area of southern Gaza & has even damaged the border crossing.

Interesting footage of the explosion taken looking down at where it happened. That tells us it was expected. Now what we aren't being told is the Israelis blew up a border tunnel and gave the Palestinian authority warning of it. One has to suspect that gave Hamas a photo opportunity to plant a bomb. It should be explained that Hamas do NOT want Gazans to leave into Egypt because they know that they will not come back. Israel on the other hand say they do not want people to leave altogether but they want them out of the north part of Gaza city where the 300 miles of underground tunnels Hiding Hamas currently exist. That is the side we don't get told quite as often. I have no idea if it is true.

[Observer II]

Be interesting to see how this develops, with the West's liberal left screaming for the safety of the Gazan civilians, the Egyptians certainly don't want them, so are calling for the EU to take them if they are that concerned - bluff called.  But I wouldn't be surprised if we end up taking a share of the 2 plus million refugees , complete with a sprinkling of Hamas operatives.  😢

[Bill]

Just when you thought it couldn’t get much worse, the rocket that hit the hospital has certainly stirred things up. The big question though is whose rocket was it? From the very short clip that was shown, it didn’t seem anything like most of the explosions we’ve been seeing. No huge explosion or crater just a lot of fire which is fairly consistent with what the Israelis claim to have been a faulty Hamas rocket.

The problem is that it’s now going to be almost impossible to verify anything from what left on the ground as there’s probably bits of Israeli munitions all over the place. Plus, if there’s any sort of ariel surveillance, it’s not going to be believed by Hamas or any of the Arab states.  

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II]

As in Ukraine, wars are now fought politically with propaganda and control of information;  any incident such as this will be seized on by either side to shape the narrative, and will be received by supporters in polarised fashion.   Aside from US influence on the IDF  to stay within the boundaries of international law,  I think the IDF may be having second thoughts on actually entering Gaza,  as most of their troops are reservists and not specially trained in urban guerilla warfare, which could result in a high casualty rate. If a UN task force could be agreed to police Gaza, and allow aid to reach the civil population, it could pacify the situation, if Hamas were prepared to allow it.   😢

[Bill]

From what I’ve just seen on TV, the rocket that hit the hospital was 100% certainly fired from within Gaza. The whole event was broadcast live on the Al Jazeera news channel. It showed a rocket ascending from Gaza that seemed to partially explode then a few seconds later a flash of light from the hospital below.

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II]

The hardliners on both sides are currently in control,  and it's up to the more moderate majorities to take over control, before the death toll hardens opinion.   Interesting that Hamza Useless is calling for us to take in the Gazans as refugees, which would include his in laws !   

[Confused52]

1 hour ago, Observer II said:

The hardliners on both sides are currently in control,  and it's up to the more moderate majorities to take over control, before the death toll hardens opinion.   Interesting that Hamza Useless is calling for us to take in the Gazans as refugees, which would include his in laws !   

My understanding is that hard-line is all there is in Hamas, they don't represent their population. 

[ninearches]

21 hours ago, Observer II said:

Be interesting to see how this develops, with the West's liberal left screaming for the safety of the Gazan civilians, the Egyptians certainly don't want them, so are calling for the EU to take them if they are that concerned - bluff called.  But I wouldn't be surprised if we end up taking a share of the 2 plus million refugees , complete with a sprinkling of Hamas operatives.  😢

So much for a brotherhood of Muslims when they won't even take their own people in a time of crisis. No wonder we have so many people knocking on our door & the doors of EU countries.

[ninearches]

5 hours ago, Bill said:

Just when you thought it couldn’t get much worse, the rocket that hit the hospital has certainly stirred things up. The big question though is whose rocket was it? From the very short clip that was shown, it didn’t seem anything like most of the explosions we’ve been seeing. No huge explosion or crater just a lot of fire which is fairly consistent with what the Israelis claim to have been a faulty Hamas rocket.

The problem is that it’s now going to be almost impossible to verify anything from what left on the ground as there’s probably bits of Israeli munitions all over the place. Plus, if there’s any sort of ariel surveillance, it’s not going to be believed by Hamas or any of the Arab states.  

 

Bill 😊

There was very stable drone footage of the incident so something must have been expected. Probably friendly Hamas trick to claim an Israeli war crime.

[Observer II]

Unfortunately, the Israelis are being governed by emotion at the moment, a thirst for revenge.   But it would seem to me that Hamas can be taken out surgically over time, by assasinations, something Mossad was renown for.    💀

[Lt Kije]

Perhaps if the Isralies stop building on occupied land and stop the ethnic cleaning of East Jerusalem, it might take the sting out of it

[Confused52]

3 hours ago, Lt Kije said:

Perhaps if the Isralies stop building on occupied land and stop the ethnic cleaning of East Jerusalem, it might take the sting out of it

To which state does the occupied land to which you refer belong? 

[Observer II]

I'm afraid this saga is looking quite dangerous now, the concern is, that if Israel starts to lose against the Arabs, it will definately use it's nukes - WW3.   💀

[Lt Kije]

On 10/18/2023 at 3:59 PM, ninearches said:

So much for a brotherhood of Muslims when they won't even take their own people in a time of crisis. No wonder we have so many people knocking on our door & the doors of EU countries.

Take a look at how many Palestinians are already in those Countries, 6 million in Jordan, a crass comment, when you have no idea of the numbers in those Countries 

[Lt Kije]

16 hours ago, Confused52 said:

To which state does the occupied land to which you refer belong? 

Well the goons heights were in Syria!!, might help you if you look at were the Un say the border of Israel is, the border that most Countries in the World recognise, the 1967 border if my memory serves me right

[Confused52]

On 10/21/2023 at 10:42 AM, Lt Kije said:

Well the goons heights were in Syria!!, might help you if you look at were the Un say the border of Israel is, the border that most Countries in the World recognise, the 1967 border if my memory serves me right

Yes the Golan Heights were indeed in Syria but the population were mainly Druze who have been persecuted long term by the Syrian regime. The land may have been Syrian under the Sykes-Picot agreement but that was the excuse for Yalta and both have caused untold problems since. On balance whilst the De Jure situation, if you aren’t American is that the land belongs to Syria, the formerly Syrian people who live there are probably happier to be Israeli with settlements or not.

The situation in the West Bank is different. Whilst you cite the 1967 borders most people talking about those mean the borders before the 1967 war, i.e. the 1949 Armistice or Green Line border; I assume you did too. On the UN map of the Armistice Boundaries the West Bank is shown as Occupied, but the occupying power was Jordan, not Israel. This follows from the creation of Israel where the Mandate of Palestine was split between two potential states with non-contiguous land parcels within the borders of the Mandate. Jordan, formerly the Mandate of Trans-Jordan was outside the Palestine Mandate. The UN Resolution called for a Jewish State and an Arab State with separate areas but in economic union. Israel agreed the Palestinian Arabs didn’t the result was the Mandate was dissolved the new state create but no Palestinian state because they wouldn’t share borders with the Jewish state. One day later the Arab states invaded the former Mandate area.

So those settlements in the West Bank are in land which would have been in a Palestinian State area of former Mandate Palestine economically controlled jointly with Israel if a Palestinian State had come into existence, which it still hasn’t.

The same map you cite says Gaza is occupied by Egypt by the way.

The situation is much more complex than the sound bites you use; that is why it is intractable. The UN has spent decades trying to control the Palestinian Arab areas in ways that try to implement the UN Resolution. The UK did not agree to it and abstained because we would not support a plan that did not have the support of all those affected. The US and the Soviet Union did vote for it and the UN caused, and continues to promote, the mess we have now. The original plan was nuts and the local population were so aggressive that Britain felt compelled to get out of its control of the Mandate and give the problem to the UN because our troops were being murdered by both sides.

[ninearches]

3 hours ago, Lt Kije said:

Take a look at how many Palestinians are already in those Countries, 6 million in Jordan, a crass comment, when you have no idea of the numbers in those Countries 

I would think there is more available space within the Arab countries than within European countries ,especially the UK.

[Observer II]

Well we've just taken in 3,000 Afghans from Pakistan,  so more hotels booked and more money wasted.   They won't be happy until we're a Muslim State.   😠