The religion of peace ?

[Observer II]

See the latest episode in the middle east saga has exposed the barbarity of the combatants.   Wonder how Corbyn and the lefty liberals are going to interpret this one ?      

[Confused52]

The same way that you excuse the behaviour of the Russians I should think.

[Observer II]

Don't be stupid -  following the illegal coup in Ukraine, the Nazi led military spent 8 years bombarding ethnic Russians in the Donbass, inc women and children, 14,000.   Your clearly captured by the US/UK false narrative, which has filled our MSM ever since.  However, as the so-called Ukraine offensive comes to nought,  having lost over 450,000 young men in fruitless assaults,  even our MSM are having to accept reality and alter the narrative, time you did so too.    

[Confused52]

There was no illegal Coup in Ukraine unless you are in the Kremlin, and in their case it is just projection because they really were plotting one. Listening to the call involving Victoria Nuland that you claim is proof of a CIA plot is just a standard diplomatic call it is no proof at all, unless you are in the Kremlin ( who put up the leaked call and included the guff you quote in the You Tube video - it is just Kremlin propaganda from start to finish). They are many explanations around from Russians as to how Putin called the Ukrainians Nazis in order to manipulate Russian domestic opinion by invoking the Great Patriotic war (in which more Ukrainians died fighting the Germans than did Russians), there was another of them in the Moscow Times only this week. You are hopelessly gullible on this subject and wouldn't recognise reality if it hit you in the face. And you call me stupid!

Oh yes and the Donbass shelling was caused by firing of artillery from Russian troops in Donbas, there were Russian troops there from the start. I was a description from a train driver who took the Russian troops and weapons across the border from Rostov. That version of events was accepted by a court in the Hague which caused Igor Girkin so be convicted. He knows the lies and the Kremlin have now banged him up on trumped up charges to stop him spilling the beans. Join the dots for goodness sake, the Russian are just Mafiosi.

[Observer II]

The western (US) narrative, totally adopted by the MSM, has clearly worked on you.  They've been claiming a Ukrainian victory for the last year, even though on paper, and now in reality they haven't got a cat in hell's chance.   With Israel now claiming priority for US depleted weapons stock piles and cash; the Urainian oligarks will be fleeing to their villas in the US, and taking their millions of syphoned dollars with them.  Your beyond gullible.   😄

[Confused52]

I'm not claiming a victory at all just pointing out that you just spout Kremlin proven lies. I read news from many places and I treat all stories with scepticism. You just tried to change the subject as usual. You truly have no idea what is going on and just regurgitate one sides lies, do stop it.

[Observer II]

I believe folk who know what they're talking about, like Scott Ritter, Doug Mgreggor etc.  The demented President in the White House surrounded by his neo-con advisers, are so locked into their Russophobia, they are deluded and totally divorced from reality.  We'll be lucky to avoid WW3 with these idiots.   

[ninearches]

Sadly ,when Netenyanu is in charge we seem to have an escalation of hostilities in Palestine.  The real tragedy is that the Israeli government seems to be turning into their persecutors of 90 years ago & unless the situation is resolved once & for all there will always be terrorists targeting the west.

[Observer II]

Both sides are dominated by religious zealots, sure fire recipe for mutual strife.   

[Observer II]

True to form, it seems Israel will conduct an eye for an eye operation on Hamas by levelling Gaza, and the cycle of death will continue.    💀

[Observer II]

See  Sunack wants to appear relevent on the world stage, by dispatching some RN ships to the E/Med.   The same RN that can't be employed to defend UK's shores by turning the migrant boats back.   The first question is, why are they getting involved in the Israel saga,  It's clearly nothing to do with us; then the clue appears in the press coverage - the word "humanitarian" appears.  So what are they going to do - ship a load of palastinian refugees back to the UK, saving them the need to treck to Calais ?    

[Lt Kije]

On 10/8/2023 at 8:18 PM, Observer II said:

The western (US) narrative, totally adopted by the MSM, has clearly worked on you.  They've been claiming a Ukrainian victory for the last year, even though on paper, and now in reality they haven't got a cat in hell's chance.   With Israel now claiming priority for US depleted weapons stock piles and cash; the Urainian oligarks will be fleeing to their villas in the US, and taking their millions of syphoned dollars with them.  Your beyond gullible.   😄

Looks like you fell for the Russian narrative 

[Observer II]

And you fell for the US narrative.  

[Lt Kije]

Just now, Observer II said:

And you fell for the US narrative.  

Nope!!!!!!

[Observer II]

Yep !😑

[Lt Kije]

As to your title to this thread, The Religion of Peace

 

Which religion were you alluding too???

 

According to the United Nations, roughly 6,400 Palestinians and 300 Israelis had been killed in the ongoing conflict since 2008, not counting the recent fatalities.

[Observer II]

So, is quantity the basis of your moral argument ?   Neither side can claim any morality, and the Palastinians must know that any conflict always results in a higher proportion of deaths on their part, so why do they keep pursueing such suicidal policies ?   The actions of Hammas and other terrorist groups, is to use civilians as human shields, in a cynical attempt to win the humanitarian discourse.       💀

[Lt Kije]

23 minutes ago, Observer II said:

So, is quantity the basis of your moral argument ?   Neither side can claim any morality, and the Palastinians must know that any conflict always results in a higher proportion of deaths on their part, so why do they keep pursueing such suicidal policies ?   The actions of Hammas and other terrorist groups, is to use civilians as human shields, in a cynical attempt to win the humanitarian discourse.       💀

Perhaps Obs, if the Israelis stopped grabbing land, it would ease the situation, It's odd that you don't seem bothered by that, just the Palestinian reaction to it 

[Lt Kije]

Perhaps another reason to fight back!!!!!!

A report by Amnesty International

 

The legacy of Israel’s 50-year occupation of the Palestinian territories has been systematic human rights violations on a mass scale. One of its most devastating consequences is the impact of Israel’s discriminatory policies on Palestinians’ access to adequate supplies of clean and safe water.

Soon after Israel occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, in June 1967, the Israeli military authorities consolidated complete power over all water resources and water-related infrastructure in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT). 50 years on, Israel continues to control and restrict Palestinian access to water in the OPT to a level which neither meets their needs nor constitutes a fair distribution of shared water resources.

In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army. As a result, some 180 Palestinian communities in rural areas in the occupied West Bank have no access to running water, according to OCHA. Even in towns and villages which are connected to the water network, the taps often run dry.

© ABBAS MOMANI/AFP/Getty Images

Palestinian women fill bottles of water in the West Bank village of Qarawah Bani Zeid. © ABBAS MOMANI/AFP/Getty Images

While restricting Palestinian access to water, Israel has effectively developed its own water infrastructure and water network in the West Bank for the use of its own citizens in Israel and in the settlements – that are illegal under international law. The Israeli state-owned water company Mekorot has systematically sunk wells and tapped springs in the occupied West Bank to supply its population, including those living in illegal settlements with water for domestic, agricultural and industrial purposes. While Mekorot sells some water to Palestinian water utilities, the amount is determined by the Israeli authorities. As a result of continuous restrictions, many Palestinian communities in the West Bank have no choice but to purchase water brought in by trucks at a much high prices ranging from 4 to 10 USD per cubic metre. In some of the poorest communities, water expenses can, at times, make up half of a family’s monthly income.

The Israeli authorities also restrict Palestinians’ access to water by denying or restricting their access to large parts of the West Bank. Many parts of the West Bank have been declared “closed military areas”, which Palestinians may not enter, because they are close to Israeli settlements, close to roads used by Israeli settlers, used for Israeli military training or protected nature reserves.

Israeli settlers living alongside Palestinians in the West Bank – in some cases just a few hundred meters away – face no such restrictions and water shortages, and can enjoy and capitalize on well-irrigated farmlands and swimming pools.

In Gaza, some 90-95 per cent of the water supply is contaminated and unfit for human consumption. Israel does not allow water to be transferred from the West Bank to Gaza, and Gaza’s only fresh water resource, the Coastal Aquifer, is insufficient for the needs of the population and is being increasingly depleted by over-extraction and contaminated by sewage and seawater infiltration.

The resulting disparity in access to water between Israelis and Palestinians is truly staggering. Water consumption by Israelis is at least four times that of Palestinians living in the OPT. Palestinians consume on average 73 litres of water a day per person, which is well below the World Health Organization’s (WHO) recommended daily minimum of 100 litres per capita. In many herding communities in the West Bank, the water consumption for thousands of Palestinians is as low as 20 litres per person a day, according to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA). By contrast, an average Israeli consumes approximately 300 litres of water a day.

50 years on, it is time for the Israeli authorities to put an end to policies and practices which discriminate against Palestinians in the OPT and to address their desperate need for water security. The Israeli authorities must lift the restrictions currently in place which deny millions of Palestinians access to sufficient water to meet their personal and domestic needs as well as to enjoy their rights to water, food, health, work and an adequate standard of living.

[Observer II]

I have no brief for either side, due to the fact that religion is at the core of this dispute, and I have zero respect for religion of any kind, it's an insult to science based development of civilisation and the cause of countless wars throughout history.  There is no racial difference between the two sides, both are Semites, albeit with European DNA in the case of the Jews.  So the whole situation is based on mutual learned hatred based on religious difference,  fed by primitive adherance to a belief system.  The Jews believe they were given the Holy Land by God, and thus have a right to occupy it totally, thus the continued occupation of the West bank.  Unfortunately, like most feuds, one crime begets another ad infinitum, so unless secular mind sets prevail, it's a lost cause, and one we should steer clear of.    💀

[Lt Kije]

3 hours ago, Observer II said:

I have no brief for either side, due to the fact that religion is at the core of this dispute, and I have zero respect for religion of any kind, it's an insult to science based development of civilisation and the cause of countless wars throughout history.  There is no racial difference between the two sides, both are Semites, albeit with European DNA in the case of the Jews.  So the whole situation is based on mutual learned hatred based on religious difference,  fed by primitive adherance to a belief system.  The Jews believe they were given the Holy Land by God, and thus have a right to occupy it totally, thus the continued occupation of the West bank.  Unfortunately, like most feuds, one crime begets another ad infinitum, so unless secular mind sets prevail, it's a lost cause, and one we should steer clear of.    💀

I too am an atheist, sadly what is happening and being done to the Palestinians on a daily basis is ignored, The only solution is the two-state solution with Israel back behind its internationally recognised 1967 border, and should not be rewarded for land grabbing!!   

[Observer II]

Unfortunately, we live in a world where might is right,  and to date Israel, backed by the US, has had the might.  This of course could change, as anti-US sentiment grows globally. But if Israel ever feels that it's existence is threatened,  imo it will certainly use it's nuclear arsenal to survive.          💀

[Bill]

To me both sides in this conflict are as bad as each other and if it were possible they’d both be told to stop it and spend some time on the naughty step. It’s easy to see that religion is at the root of the problems but I find it difficult to accept that any kind of divine intervention in the past could have set out guidance for mankind to hate one another in this way.

Whether you have religious beliefs or not, from the evidence we can see right around the world, there’s almost no denying that at some time in the past we had people on this earth that were significantly more advanced than us. To the people of that time, they might have appeared as great leaders or even Gods and coming from a more advanced civilization, you’d expect them to guide the population along lines that would be beneficial to everyone’s survival.

Our own Bible is full of references that could be interpreted as being other worldly and depending on your point of view, it can either strengthen and explain the origins of religion or alternatively justify atheism. Personally, I don’t think it makes any difference if these were Gods or some kind of alien visitors but either way I believe someone in the past set out the rules for mankind to follow, and over time these have become distorted and bent to suite ourselves and our own actions.

All a bit deep but that’s the name of this topic.

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II]

From the earliest homo-sapiens, with developed capacity to imagine, all sorts of answers as to our existence would have been created.  Australian aborigenes believed they sprung from the ground in Australia, when science accepts they were migrants, ultimately from Africa, 50,000 yrs ago.   Native Americans believed the earth originated on the back of a turtle.  Then there was the development of a more sophisticated pantheon of gods, each to appeal to or blame.; finally the concept of a single God, by the Jews, which gave rise to Christianity and Islam.  The officials who administered these religions, were a privilaged elite sustained by the toil of the peasants.   The Romans, usually tolerant of the various religions however,  became intolerant of the Jews, who were continually rebellious, resulting in their eventual disporia.   Then, in the middle ages we had the rise of Islam and it's clash with Christianity, resulting in the crusades.  These historic enmities have persisted, even within the various belief systems EG Catholic V Protestant, and outcomes in places like N/Ireland.   Religion was the geo-politics of our history and the divisions it creates have tended to persist.   In the case of Israel,  the Jews were granted a State in Palastine after WW2, and have displaced most of the original Arab inhabitants since,  thus feeding a grievance, that we now see being played out in Gaza.  

[Confused52]

43 minutes ago, Observer II said:

 In the case of Israel,  the Jews were granted a State in Palastine after WW2, and have displaced most of the original Arab inhabitants since,  thus feeding a grievance, that we now see being played out in Gaza.  

I know you think you are being accurate but you really aren't. 17% of the population of Israel are Moslems and that doesn't include Gaza or the West Bank. There were many Jewish properties in Palestine before 1948. The number of Moslems in Israel is almost as many as in the West Bank. However the majority of the land in what was the Palestine Mandate is still reserved for Arabs as it was at the time of Israel's creation and was also reserved during the period of British control. I suspect you don't really understand the situation and I know I don't. My current state of understanding is that the heart of the current dispute is not religion per se, but it makes a simple excuse.