The religion of peace ?

[Lt Kije]

On 10/21/2023 at 1:22 PM, Confused52 said:

Yes the Golan Heights were indeed in Syria but the population were mainly Druze who have been persecuted long term by the Syrian regime. The land may have been Syrian under the Sykes-Picot agreement but that was the excuse for Yalta and both have caused untold problems since. On balance whilst the De Jure situation, if you aren’t American is that the land belongs to Syria, the formerly Syrian people who live there are probably happier to be Israeli with settlements or not.

The situation in the West Bank is different. Whilst you cite the 1967 borders most people talking about those mean the borders before the 1967 war, i.e. the 1949 Armistice or Green Line border; I assume you did too. On the UN map of the Armistice Boundaries the West Bank is shown as Occupied, but the occupying power was Jordan, not Israel. This follows from the creation of Israel where the Mandate of Palestine was split between two potential states with non-contiguous land parcels within the borders of the Mandate. Jordan, formerly the Mandate of Trans-Jordan was outside the Palestine Mandate. The UN Resolution called for a Jewish State and an Arab State with separate areas but in economic union. Israel agreed the Palestinian Arabs didn’t the result was the Mandate was dissolved the new state create but no Palestinian state because they wouldn’t share borders with the Jewish state. One day later the Arab states invaded the former Mandate area.

So those settlements in the West Bank are in land which would have been in a Palestinian State area of former Mandate Palestine economically controlled jointly with Israel if a Palestinian State had come into existence, which it still hasn’t.

The same map you cite says Gaza is occupied by Egypt by the way.

The situation is much more complex than the sound bites you use; that is why it is intractable. The UN has spent decades trying to control the Palestinian Arab areas in ways that try to implement the UN Resolution. The UK did not agree to it and abstained because we would not support a plan that did not have the support of all those affected. The US and the Soviet Union did vote for it and the UN caused, and continues to promote, the mess we have now. The original plan was nuts and the local population were so aggressive that Britain felt compelled to get out of its control of the Mandate and give the problem to the UN because our troops were being murdered by both sides.

Indeed it is complex, but as you know but still ignore, Israel is building on more and more land, and taking more and more of its water, which does not seem to bother you, but as soon as the Palestinians fight back, your basis against Muslims floats to the top

[Lt Kije]

On 10/21/2023 at 2:36 PM, ninearches said:

I would think there is more available space within the Arab countries than within European countries ,especially the UK.

And ,ost are in the Arab Countries, again an ill thought out comment

[Confused52]

3 hours ago, Lt Kije said:

Indeed it is complex, but as you know but still ignore, Israel is building on more and more land, and taking more and more of its water, which does not seem to bother you, but as soon as the Palestinians fight back, your basis against Muslims floats to the top

You are unbelievable. Gaza has insufficient water and relies on supplies from Israel. The Gaza strip cannot support the population in it and in normal circumstances needs to send its workers into Israel for economic reasons. If that happened in this country you would no doubt be quick to point out that the Government was irresponsible in not coming to agreements and negotiating with our neighbours. That cannot happen in Gaza because Hamas is funded by Iran which aims to destroy the state of Israel because it gave support to the Shah. This is about power and control, Iran does not fund Hamas because Gaza is a fellow Muslim country; Iran is Shia and Gaza is Sunni - they just hate Israel and the US (who also helped the Shah).

Hamas does not behave like a normal government and it cannot be trusted. The only reason that the casualty figures are not weighted more heavily on the Israeli side is that the Hamas weapons did not manage to reach Tel Aviv and now there are better missile defences.

It is not a case of fighting back for Hamas it is a case of fighting instead of behaving like a responsible Government. One might argue that is perhaps inevitable since following the election in 2006 when Hamas came to power - to be attacked shortly afterwards by Fatah - there have been no more elections in Gaza. So what is it that you think is appropriate - two separate and warring Palestinian states in difficult land, one sworn to destroy Israel. This view of yours is worse than idealistic. My problem with Hamas is nothing to do with religion but it is do with terrorism and they are a proscribed organisation for a reason.

[Lt Kije]

2 hours ago, Confused52 said:

You are unbelievable. Gaza has insufficient water and relies on supplies from Israel. The Gaza strip cannot support the population in it and in normal circumstances needs to send its workers into Israel for economic reasons. If that happened in this country you would no doubt be quick to point out that the Government was irresponsible in not coming to agreements and negotiating with our neighbours. That cannot happen in Gaza because Hamas is funded by Iran which aims to destroy the state of Israel because it gave support to the Shah. This is about power and control, Iran does not fund Hamas because Gaza is a fellow Muslim country; Iran is Shia and Gaza is Sunni - they just hate Israel and the US (who also helped the Shah).

Hamas does not behave like a normal government and it cannot be trusted. The only reason that the casualty figures are not weighted more heavily on the Israeli side is that the Hamas weapons did not manage to reach Tel Aviv and now there are better missile defences.

It is not a case of fighting back for Hamas it is a case of fighting instead of behaving like a responsible Government. One might argue that is perhaps inevitable since following the election in 2006 when Hamas came to power - to be attacked shortly afterwards by Fatah - there have been no more elections in Gaza. So what is it that you think is appropriate - two separate and warring Palestinian states in difficult land, one sworn to destroy Israel. This view of yours is worse than idealistic. My problem with Hamas is nothing to do with religion but it is do with terrorism and they are a proscribed organisation for a reason.

You do know that Israel does not allow Gaza to develop, and only allows some imports, there are massive restrictions on the people, they are not around to build a port, come on Obs you know this, and still post crap.take a look on the restrictions for the people in Gaza, its a very big prison camp!!!, as to your problem with Hamas, did you also have a problem with the Stern Gang or the Irgun Zvai Le’umi???? or were they freedom fighters

[Confused52]

3 minutes ago, Lt Kije said:

You do know that Israel does not allow Gaza to develop, and only allows some imports, there are massive restrictions on the people, they are not around to build a port, come on Obs you know this, and still post crap.take a look on the restrictions for the people in Gaza, its a very big prison camp!!!, as to your problem with Hamas, did you also have a problem with the Stern Gang or the Irgun Zvai Le’umi???? or were they freedom fighters

The other day you wanted Israel to return to the green line borders, well you have your wish in Gaza. If you remember I called both sides murderers during the Mandate period which is part of the period when the names you quote operated, no they weren't freedom fighters. Today they would rightly be called terrorists. 

[Lt Kije]

1 minute ago, Confused52 said:

The other day you wanted Israel to return to the green line borders, well you have your wish in Gaza. If you remember I called both sides murderers during the Mandate period which is part of the period when the names you quote operated, no they weren't freedom fighters. Today they would rightly be called terrorists. 

Terrorism works, you only need to look at Isreal to see that, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

[Lt Kije]

5 minutes ago, Confused52 said:

The other day you wanted Israel to return to the green line borders, well you have your wish in Gaza. If you remember I called both sides murderers during the Mandate period which is part of the period when the names you quote operated, no they weren't freedom fighters. Today they would rightly be called terrorists. 

Have you looked at the restrictions the people of Gaza live under every day, and what is allowed to be imported in, take a look, and then ask why they Gaza remains undeveloped

[Confused52]

11 minutes ago, Lt Kije said:

Have you looked at the restrictions the people of Gaza live under every day, and what is allowed to be imported in, take a look, and then ask why they Gaza remains undeveloped

You know why, they cannot import anything which can be used to create a weapon. They are very prone to creating weapons. The launch tube for missiles were made from water pipes supplied by the EU which Hamas dug up to make weapons. Their behaviour is indefensible and if they behaved at all reasonably there would not be these restrictions. Like I said  Hamas have proven they can't be trusted.

[Lt Kije]

17 hours ago, Confused52 said:

You know why, they cannot import anything which can be used to create a weapon. They are very prone to creating weapons. The launch tube for missiles were made from water pipes supplied by the EU which Hamas dug up to make weapons. Their behaviour is indefensible and if they behaved at all reasonably there would not be these restrictions. Like I said  Hamas have proven they can't be trusted.

Ahh, so without actually admitting it, you now agree with me, that they do live under restrictions, and cannot develop economically, see we got there in the end

[Confused52]

1 hour ago, Lt Kije said:

Ahh, so without actually admitting it, you now agree with me, that they do live under restrictions, and cannot develop economically, see we got there in the end

How childish, I have simply pointed out that your version of events is one sided. You choose to ignore that the reason for their predicament is not just the fault of Israel but their own government by Hamas which is at is the root of the dispute. I do not now agree with you; rather I observe the facts and the fact do include restrictions. Do you accept that the restrictions are clearly justifiable given the events of the last two weeks. If you don't then you are exhibiting a bias and ignoring facts.

[Lt Kije]

5 hours ago, Confused52 said:

How childish, I have simply pointed out that your version of events is one sided. You choose to ignore that the reason for their predicament is not just the fault of Israel but their own government by Hamas which is at is the root of the dispute. I do not now agree with you; rather I observe the facts and the fact do include restrictions. Do you accept that the restrictions are clearly justifiable given the events of the last two weeks. If you don't then you are exhibiting a bias and ignoring facts.

The restrictions were in place even before Hamas got voted in, you knew that, but still posted tosh, You observe nothing!!

You said that the people of Gaza are relying on going to Israel for work, I told you the reason, please reread what you put, it would help if you tried to debate, instead of trying to point score

[Confused52]

16 hours ago, Lt Kije said:

The restrictions were in place even before Hamas got voted in, you knew that, but still posted tosh, You observe nothing!!

You said that the people of Gaza are relying on going to Israel for work, I told you the reason, please reread what you put, it would help if you tried to debate, instead of trying to point score

In fact I didn’t know they were in place before Hamas took power. Now I do, but I also know they were not continuous or permanent before Hamas took power. Their start aligned with the attacks by Palestinians in the Second Intifada. I also now know that the permanent blockade was supported by the Fatah led Palestinian Authority. So what I posted was incomplete but not tosh; what you posted was also incomplete, the omission being that the blockade was a response and not a provocation.

The fact that Gazans need to work in Israel is not important in that it is evidence of Israeli misdeeds which seems to be your premise. I cited it as evidence only that Gaza is not a fully functional nation state. However it never was meant to be, right from the start in 1947. I have reread what I wrote and the gist was that the governance of Gaza should not have allowed the current situation to develop; instead it should have negotiated in good faith with Israel putting its people first. It didn’t, it is not a responsible government and you want to excuse that because Israel should not value its own security and existence.

Debate this subject with someone else.

PS Despite your confusion I am not Observer and I didn’t down tick your posts.

[Observer II]

Seems Netanyanu, in a past effort to divide and conquer,  gave funding to Hamas, to split it from Fatah.   So no wonder he only gets 20% support within Israel now.   Another thing to note,  the religious extremists, who stir up anti arab dissent, are exempted military service, so they cause the wars and the secular jews have to fight them.   weird.    💀

[Lt Kije]

On 10/25/2023 at 3:50 PM, Observer II said:

Seems Netanyanu, in a past effort to divide and conquer,  gave funding to Hamas, to split it from Fatah.   So no wonder he only gets 20% support within Israel now.   Another thing to note,  the religious extremists, who stir up anti arab dissent, are exempted military service, so they cause the wars and the secular jews have to fight them.   weird.    💀

Weird, you could not make up the mess, they are now in

[Lt Kije]

On 10/25/2023 at 1:02 PM, Confused52 said:

In fact I didn’t know they were in place before Hamas took power. Now I do, but I also know they were not continuous or permanent before Hamas took power. Their start aligned with the attacks by Palestinians in the Second Intifada. I also now know that the permanent blockade was supported by the Fatah led Palestinian Authority. So what I posted was incomplete but not tosh; what you posted was also incomplete, the omission being that the blockade was a response and not a provocation.

The fact that Gazans need to work in Israel is not important in that it is evidence of Israeli misdeeds which seems to be your premise. I cited it as evidence only that Gaza is not a fully functional nation state. However it never was meant to be, right from the start in 1947. I have reread what I wrote and the gist was that the governance of Gaza should not have allowed the current situation to develop; instead it should have negotiated in good faith with Israel putting its people first. It didn’t, it is not a responsible government and you want to excuse that because Israel should not value its own security and existence.

Debate this subject with someone else.

PS Despite your confusion I am not Observer and I didn’t down tick your posts.

As to marking down, never bothered me, as to mistaking you for Obs, you are right, I did, I apologise

[Observer II]

😄

[Observer II]

See Starmer's effort to be all things to all men, has caused a civil war in the Labour Party.  Time he was spewed out ?