CO2 everywhere -

[Observer II]

- and not a drop to spare !    Couldn't really make it up,  but now we've greened out our coal power stations, and the wind isn't blowing or the sun shining, we're relying on the Russians for gas and the price is going up.  So it looks like "going green" is going to get rather uncomfortable or expensive, and there may be no turkeys for Xmas.   😉

[ninearches]

Isn't it carbon dioxide that is so called responsible for climate change ? Surely it can be harvested in somehow.

[Observer II]

I think they produced it from the old power stations, which have been closed now.  The price of imported gas has gone up, which has caused the two plants which seperated the CO2 to go out of business, and the knock on effect has hit the meat storage sector.  Plus, there's fewer HGV drivers, which has upset things all along the supply chain. And to top it all, energy prices are about to rocket.   

[Bill]

Seems a bit crazy that we don’t have enough CO2 having been told we’re producing too much of it for many years. What’s happened in Russia to limit the amount of gas they supply to us and how is that affecting CO2 production?

I always thought that the protective atmosphere in packaged goods was nitrogen and as that makes up about 80% of the air we breathe, we shouldn’t really be short of that.

At least my pint of real ale shouldn’t be affected but the larger drinkers may end up with a few less bubbles.

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II]

The problem is common throughout Europe,  (so not Brexit);  imo it arises because of the mad rush to "go green", with wind and solar unable to provide for normal consumption; leading to a dependency on imports.  The moral of the story is, don't let go of what you have, until your sure what you want works.    

[Confused52]

My understanding is that it is a complex story. UK Long term gas storage used to be in a depleted North Sea Gas well but it started to leak and has been abandoned so the UK has lost a massive part of its storage capacity. That was increased with smaller medium term storage facilities including one in Cheshire but it is still lower. The actual gas in storage is the same as at this time last year. However we cannot get LPG imports because the Far East is taking those supplies from the middle east and increasing prices. The amount of Gas from Russia could be increased by opening the new Nordstream Baltic pipeline early but the Germans haven't approved it and there are concerns that Russia will close the supply to Ukraine because the transit facility to Germany is no longer needed ( taking $2Bn pa from Ukraine in transit fees) and taking the political pressure to not freeze Ukraine back into Russia away.

The increasing price of gas is making fertiliser manufacture in the UK unviable and the CO2 is a by product of those plants. CO2 sequestration from Power station emissions is not yet a viable process. 

The price of electricity is also being hit because the usual 3GW interconnector from France has been closed down because of a fire in Kent at the UK end of the cable. Interconnectors are complex because they are extremely high voltage but need to be Direct Current so that the timing information is not connected between power networks. That is necessary to let each network load balance independently. The high gas price is also causing people to try to burn as little gas as they can but there is an area of high pressure reducing wind generation and almost no coal capacity because of green pests.

The current Electricity situation is demand at 34.6GW

being supplied by:

Closed Cycle Gas Turbine 15.7
Solar 5.97
Nuclear 4.82
Wind 2.83
Biomass (Wood Pellets) 1.65
Holland I/C 1.03
Coal 1.00
Belgium I/C 0.85
France I/C 0.58
Ireland I/C -0.52
Open Cycle Gas Turbine 0.00
Hydroelectric 0.05
Pumped Storage 0.00

I/C = Interconnector

 

The Green lobby has a lot to answer for - we can't afford them or just to tolerate them.
 

[Confused52]

What is rather concerning is the reality that small suppliers are price capped but costs are rising rapidly. Together Energy is much more exposed to gas prices than most as it supplies gas and uses more than average amount of gas electricity production. Most worrying is that Warrington Borough Council has a 50% share in it and it is currently predicted that all but 10 of the present energy suppliers will fold by the end of the year. That would leave council tax payers service the money which the council have on a lean with no income to service the debt. Together Energy is not in the top 13 of energy suppliers by turnover as at mid 2021.

[Bill]

Just as well then that this has come about now and not in the middle of winter when the demand for gas is at it’s highest. I remember some years back watching a fake documentary about a huge area of high pressure in the middle of winter that was pushing the demand for gas through the roof. That was until a Russian rebel group blew up the pipeline.

Without the gas turbines, a catastrophic chain reaction occurred that shut down the entire national grid with devastating results. I missed the show’s beginning and so watched in horror as news reports came in rather like when they did the infamous war of the world broadcast.

 

Bill 😊

[Evil Sid]

5 hours ago, Observer II said:

but now we've greened out our coal power stations, and the wind isn't blowing or the sun shining, we're relying on the Russians for gas

i might be a bit slow here but how does the sun and wind affect the fact that the price of gas is going up. Electric possibly but gas?

[Confused52]

1 minute ago, Evil Sid said:

i might be a bit slow here but how does the sun and wind affect the fact that the price of gas is going up. Electric possibly but gas?

The issue would be that the lack of renewable sources increases the fraction of electricity generation from Gas. The extra demand for Gas above the currently contracted amount causes extra gas to be purchased in the short term or spot market which, because there is limited excess supply, pushes the spot price of gas up. The generators have no choice but to buy at the inflated price. It is the price of the extra supply which goes up. I don't understand why the fertiliser manufacturers are relying on spot market gas prices unless they are international and their business model is to supply from the country that manufactures cheapest at the moment! The two closed plants are at Billingham and Ince and the owners have alternative facilities in the USA.

[Observer II]

38 minutes ago, Evil Sid said:

i might be a bit slow here but how does the sun and wind affect the fact that the price of gas is going up. Electric possibly but gas?

It all comes under the heading of Energy Sid;  if either gas or electric goes up; it affects your bill in total.   It's clear that Gov haven't secured sufficient home grown energy capacity to feed normal demand; nor have they made any serious moves to reduce consumption via home insulation, and roof top solar etc.  This is the result of the mad dash to appease our eco warriors, and ignore practical application.  Thus we're drifting into the green Utopia, where we'll all be riding bikes and wearing thermals at home in the Winter. So not back to the future - but back to the past.  

[ninearches]

Couldn't the fertiliser bods burn the farmers manure or the methane gas that is provided by the cattle in the fields ? I'm  sure gas harvester bags could be fitted to the rumps of cattle but just have to be careful the cows don't lift off if the  gas bags get too full.

[Observer II]

Well on Countryfile, they had a piece where cattle are being trained to use a specific toilet area -  literally total BS !   😉

[Bill]

Well, look on the bright side, a step away from some of the modern lifestyle choices might not be a bad thing. If you want some meat, then why not get some fresh stuff from the butches rather than the supermarket plastic packed version.

Maybe it’s also time to get rid of all this switching about rubbish and go back to a nationalized system of energy.

 

Bill 😊

[Confused52]

59 minutes ago, ninearches said:

Couldn't the fertiliser bods burn the farmers manure or the methane gas that is provided by the cattle in the fields ? I'm  sure gas harvester bags could be fitted to the rumps of cattle but just have to be careful the cows don't lift off if the  gas bags get too full.

Nice one! 

This is the Haber process you may remember from school Chemistry for making ammonia. According to NASA it is cow belching that produces most of their methane output so collecting it would stop them eating!