The green drive for poverty.

[Observer II]

With hysterical teenagers and eco fanatics attacking our energy  sources, we've got Gov now pursuing net-zero targets that will mean higher costs for the average peasant.   There's now the threat of gas boilers being ripped out, even gas cookers, and no mention of Gov funding for the alternatives.   What amuses me, is this scramble by the UK for net-zero, which generally relies on the production of goods, and thus carbon pollution in places like China and India.   It's like sitting in a no smoking compartment of house,  while the smoking room next door continues to pollute the whole house.    😠

[Bill]

I doubt the government’s plan has anything to do with eco fanatics or hysterical teenagers but more a growing scientific argument for the reduction of man-made greenhouse emissions. Replacing gas central heating apparently doesn’t work for everyone, and certainly not if your home isn’t insulated to modern standards so I don’t think the peasants will be having their boilers ripped out any time soon. I think the legislation only applies to new homes built after 2025 which by then should be insulated to a standard where air source heat pumps become just about viable.

As for the pollution caused in the manufacture of heat pumps being more detrimental to the environment, that’s just silly and the sort of thing the hysterical teenager would come out with. What is wrong is the fact that most of these pumps will be manufactured on the other side of the world rather than here in the UK where they’re needed.

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II]

The UK currently produces less than 1% of global carbon emissions,  while we outsource production to China and India, who thus continue to pollute our shared global atmosphere.  The peasants here, are being driven out of their cars, and locked into 15 minute cities,  while the rich pontificate about net-zero, while jetting around the globe to every virtue signalling event going.   joke.    

[Confused52]

44 minutes ago, Bill said:

I doubt the government’s plan has anything to do with eco fanatics or hysterical teenagers but more a growing scientific argument for the reduction of man-made greenhouse emissions. Replacing gas central heating apparently doesn’t work for everyone, and certainly not if your home isn’t insulated to modern standards so I don’t think the peasants will be having their boilers ripped out any time soon. I think the legislation only applies to new homes built after 2025 which by then should be insulated to a standard where air source heat pumps become just about viable.

As for the pollution caused in the manufacture of heat pumps being more detrimental to the environment, that’s just silly and the sort of thing the hysterical teenager would come out with. What is wrong is the fact that most of these pumps will be manufactured on the other side of the world rather than here in the UK where they’re needed.

 

Bill 😊

The price of a kWh of energy in the form of electricity is 3.5 times that of the same amount of energy delivered as gas. The efficiency in the Winter time air temperatures of an air sourced heat pump is around 200%, with further losses as the temperature of the water is increased to use small bore piping to existing radiators. Thus the cost of replacing whole home heating is a  1.75 time increase on the cost of using gas. While gas is available this is a really incredibly stupid thing to do wherever the kit is made. There is a side effect of well insulated homes too - in summer they get unbearably hot in the sunshine. The energy market needs sorting out first so people can be confident that heat can be afforded. 

[Bill]

That’s all true and some of the figures I’ve seen paint an even poorer picture. Only a tree hugging greenie or someone with more money than sense would go for an air source pump at the moment with all their downsides.

That’s not to say it’ll be like that forever, the technology could get better, prices could change or global warming could get so bad that they actually become more efficient! 😊

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II]

Well it seems there is now finally a push back against this net-zero farce -  German car companies have rebelled against targets for phasing out petrol/diesel engines by 2035, which has caused the German Gov to back down, and in turn for the EU to back track on it.  The Italian PM has declared that her Gov will focus on improving their economy instead of paying lip service to the green dream.    

[Bill]

I’ve just done a bit of Googling on various news agencies to see why the Italians have turned their backs on climate change and unsurprisingly I can’t find any such reference. The reports I did find say was that since Russia invaded the Ukraine, Italy along with most other countries have had to focus their effort onto the economy. Read any online news report and you can put your own interpretation on it, and it seems in this case you did.

No need to Google the car issue though because it’s completely understandable. Any government can set long term targets for industry but if over time it turns out that the targets can’t be met for a variety of reasons, then things must change. I doubt there’s any rebellion as such going on.

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II]

If you cast your net a little wider Bill, you'll discover that the Polish PM has come out in total opposition to EU moves to net zero; so it looks like the penny is dropping with folk.   😉

[Bill]

Ok let's do that.

I’ve just done a bit of Googling on various news agencies to see why the Polish have turned their backs on climate change and unsurprisingly I can’t find any such reference. The reports I did find say was that since Russia invaded the Ukraine, Poland along with most other countries have had to focus their effort onto the economy. Read any online news report and you can put your own interpretation on it, and it seems in this case you did.

 

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II]

Try Michael Heaver on Youtube,  apparently the Polish PM had a major rant on the subject.   😑

[Observer II]

Should we have a referendum on net-zero ?    

[Evil Sid]

what, like the brexit one?.....🤭

[Observer II]

Why not ?   The Brexit vote was against a political establishment, with nothing in common with the majority of peasants; likewise, they are imposing on the peasants an adverse agenda.   😠

[Evil Sid]

but they have ignored brexit so far paying it lip service at best,

Ah i see, that is a good idea, have a referendum so they can then ignore net zero like they do brexit....... cunning pan baldrick.....

[Observer II]

No Sid, like Brexit, it would show the great unwashed, that our political establishment, believe them to be knuckle dragging morons, not worthy of being taken seriously, so perhaps then, the plebs can change their voting habits.   😠

[Bill]

The opinion polls tell us all we need to know so there’s little point in holding a costly referendum.

The way I see it is that most people are in favour of cleaning up the environment until it comes to it costing them anything. If like me, you have pots of money 😉 then it’s not too bad but any government needs to tread carefully before making changes that would bring real hardship to those on lower incomes.

The argument that it’s a waste of time doing anything while China and India are still polluting would be valid if we were the only country attempting to do anything. It works both ways though and if we all adopted a defeatist attitude, then they could both simply argue they’re only doing what we do, and we’d all achieve nothing.

In any case, both China and India do have net zero ambitions but on different timescales. The environmentalist want things sooner rather than later but I do sometimes wonder if in fact we create more problems by going go too far too fast.  

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II]

We've seen the outcomes of net-zero policies in Scotland and London, where middle class fanatics have come up with ULEZ and 15min Cities,  and in Scotland a costly and unworkable recycling scheme, plus a 30mph limit on a stretch of Motorway.   All these half baked schemes will undermine the living standards of the already impoverished working class.  The Indians and Chinese are still opening up new coal fired power stations, their argument being that we polluted them with our industrial revolution a hundred years ago, so they are now playing catch up.   We're actually in an inter-glacial of an ice age at the moment, and our climate owes more to such things as the Malchovitz cycle (the position of the Earth in relation to the Sun),  something we have no control over whatsoever.   

[Confused52]

1 hour ago, Observer II said:

...We're actually in an inter-glacial of an ice age at the moment, and our climate owes more to such things as the Malchovitz cycle (the position of the Earth in relation to the Sun),  something we have no control over whatsoever.   

In fact we are past the average length of interglacial periods for the present one. The effect of the Milankovitch cycle is real but doesn't account for the current warming period see this from NASA Milankovitch (Orbital) Cycles and Their Role in Earth's Climate – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet (nasa.gov)

[Bill]

Well, we can’t change the sun so it depends on whether you believe we can change the climate, and if we can, how quickly do we really need to do it. As far as I can see, there are no definitive answers to these questions, so it all comes down to personal beliefs and opinions.

I say there’s no point in recking the economy and creating hardship when given time, things will change naturally as newer technologies evolve. And if the changes are gradual rather than forced upon us, they’re far more likely to be accepted.

Imagine the reaction if decades ago we were told we’d have to give up our landlines and buy expensive devices that have a hefty monthly fee. I think you’ll get my point.

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II]

The difference is, between a calculated and methodical response, or a panic driven, hysterical one.  Whilst we can see the hysterics of the eco-fanatics, it's of concern to see Governments following them blindly.