Greeks got it right -

[Observer II]

The Country with the lowest death rate in Europe from corvid19 is Greece.  Why ?   Because they went into an immediate and draconian lockdown, thus nipping spread in the bud.  This imo was what we should have done, but weeks were wasted, during which time we had the Cheltenham races and the Liverpool footy match, plus flights in and out of the UK and crowds on our public transport systems.   Greece has a population of around 10 million, with most living around Athens in the Winter then 50% disperse to their family homes on the Islands for the Summer tourist season, if this happened earlier, it may have helped them.  The problem now for the Greeks is their economy;  largely dependent on tourism, it's difficult to see how this can pick up in the face of continuing spread of the virus and the threat of a second wave in the next Flu season.   😷

[asperity]

More 20/20 hindsight. I think we're already getting enough of this pointless "whatifery" from Starmer and co.

[Observer II]

Errm nope;  been my position from the start, and if you trawl back years and look at the Ebola topic, it was my position then  -    not rocket science Asp.      😷

[asperity]

It doesn't matter what your position was Obs, carping on about what should have been doesn't help and, as I say, Starmer and the rest aren't doing anything constructive with this sort of criticism. We are where we are and no amount of fruitless moaning is going to alter that.

[Davy51]

Perhaps,Greece was helped by not being a year round tourist destination. All that area Greece ,Turkey ,the Balkans are no go winter tourist area. Spain has a much longer season & also there is probably more flights between major EU countries than the far side of the Med.

[Confused52]

Obs, it should be obvious that being the first into lockdown actually just means you have to wait until the rest of the world deals with it because you have no immune population. The situation with ebola is completely different because ebola has a far higher fatality rate. Please consider that the experts who say that every epidemic is different and they have to be handled according to what they know about each one may actually be right and they know more than us. The first wave is always tricky because you know nothing so they need to learn and they did when the chose to lock down the UK; stopping the NHS being overwhelmed happened because they learned from Italy as well as China. . 

[Observer II]

The first thing you do in the case of any contagious pathogen is isolate from each other, either by distance or bio-protective equipment - basics.  The late start by BoJo,  was probably due to toying with the alleged advice from Dominic Cummings to allow for herd immunity, which lasted until Cummings ran out of No  10,   having caught it !  😄  Isolation and  seperation has been used throughout history to deal with plague, so, as I said, basics.   As for Starmer Asp; please don't associate me with him,  he's clueless imo,  Labour would be organising committees and Inquiries (they're already asking for one) to examine our navels, rather than getting things sorted.  😷   Oh, and Con;  yes being first into lock downs may mean waiting for the rest to catch up, but it means you don't lose as many lives.   😷

[Milky]

4 hours ago, asperity said:

More 20/20 hindsight. I think we're already getting enough of this pointless "whatifery" from Starmer and co.

Its not 20 20 hindsight vision, it is kind of common sense.. Its kind of if your on a boat at sea and you see a weather report saying there is a storm on its way do you run for shelter or sail into it?

Other countries that have quickly imposed a lock down have relatively low infection and death figures.

[Confused52]

2 hours ago, Observer II said:

 Oh, and Con;  yes being first into lock downs may mean waiting for the rest to catch up, but it means you don't lose as many lives.   😷

Only in the fist wave and you then have a completely open population if anyone brings in in without you knowing. As if anyone could bring disease into Greece on a little boat undetected?! It is still the case that without an effective vaccine you are at risk until it peters out globally, you have just delayed the deaths.

[Observer II]

Of course there's a risk until a vaccine or an anti-viral treatment is available,  that's why social distancing to varying degrees will have to be maintained; and if it is,  less people will die, than would die if you release the lock down.  So a net saving of life - assuming that's the objective of course.    😷

[asperity]

3 hours ago, Milky said:

Its not 20 20 hindsight vision, it is kind of common sense.. Its kind of if your on a boat at sea and you see a weather report saying there is a storm on its way do you run for shelter or sail into it?

Other countries that have quickly imposed a lock down have relatively low infection and death figures.

It's a bit of a stretch to compare a country with a 67 million population to a "boat", but to go along with your warped analogy it would depend on the relative positions of the "boat" and the storm. If the storm is likely to overtake you it may be best to ride it out or, if it is indeed a "boat", submerge and wait until the storm has passed.

If you were PM, would you take the advice of the medical experts as Boris did or, if not, would you have gone with your gut instinct and locked the country down before any deaths had been attributed to the virus? Always bearing in mind that the information coming from the experts at the WHO was playing down the dangers of this virus.

Anyone can be wise after an event, and being wise after an event isn't "common sense".

[Observer II]

But some were wiser before the event - evidently the Greeks !   😷   All along the line, the international community have been slow to respond; starting with the Chinese; who, in order to save face delayed a lock down and warning the world.  But even when it became known that an epidemic had exploded in Wuhan, the WHO was reluctant to declare a pandemic and  the rest were still taking in flights from China and elsewhere, with (in the UK) no requirement for returnees to be tested or quarantined, being sent home with advice to self isolate if they felt symptoms; as they travelled home in taxis, buses and by rail.      😷

[asperity]

Obs, the only part of that I would argue with is "The International Community", which is as real as the European Union as an entity. If nothing else this panic has revealed the fact that there is no global unity, in fact people from some parts of Warrington can't get on with people from other parts of Warrington! 😅

[Observer II]

Of course there's no unity, global or otherwise - it's every man or nation for itself. What we need to be reassured about, is that we have a Government who places our interests first, the primary one being - keeping us safe.      😷

[Milky]

2 hours ago, asperity said:

It's a bit of a stretch to compare a country with a 67 million population to a "boat", but to go along with your warped analogy it would depend on the relative positions of the "boat" and the storm. If the storm is likely to overtake you it may be best to ride it out or, if it is indeed a "boat", submerge and wait until the storm has passed.

If you were PM, would you take the advice of the medical experts as Boris did or, if not, would you have gone with your gut instinct and locked the country down before any deaths had been attributed to the virus? Always bearing in mind that the information coming from the experts at the WHO was playing down the dangers of this virus.

Anyone can be wise after an event, and being wise after an event isn't "common sense".

But some people are wiser than others.

The WHO were telling the UK to isolate instead Boris and his so called experts knowing there was a highly congestion disease on their doorstep (France, Italy, Spain, Germany were already having many infections) decided it was OK to have football matches and invite over supporters from a country badly effected by the virus, horse racing events, concerts. If it was OK then why is it not now?

Back then Johnson and his 'experts' were talking a different strategy one of herd immunity.

The storm hasn't caught up with the likes off Greece, Hungry, Poland, they are just catching the edge of it, while your boat is sitting it out in the middle of it, some captains are better than others!

Was your blood boiling Thursday asperity, seeing all these NHS workers singing and dancing on TV?

 

 

[Davy51]

Concerning football, We have the mayor of Liverpool blaming the government for allowing a football match to be played ,but he is the same local politician who believes rightly in attracting whatever tourism he can to his city. The pandemic in football terms has been ignored by all manner of football organisations both international & domestic who could have intervened along the way ,but revenue & giving a purpose to their being is probably uppermost in the minds of FIFA, UEFA  etc. It isn't the bring together of football

 

 

 

 

 

 

crowds as such that is the problem but the air travel in between ,that has turned the Benidorm cough into a pandemic. It would be interesting to know the international involvement of clubs from infected countries compared to countries with not much involvement in this seasons's Euro & international competitions.

PS ,don't know how that happened !

[asperity]

10 hours ago, Milky said:

But some people are wiser than others.

The WHO were telling the UK to isolate instead Boris and his so called experts knowing there was a highly congestion disease on their doorstep (France, Italy, Spain, Germany were already having many infections) decided it was OK to have football matches and invite over supporters from a country badly effected by the virus, horse racing events, concerts. If it was OK then why is it not now?

Back then Johnson and his 'experts' were talking a different strategy one of herd immunity.

The storm hasn't caught up with the likes off Greece, Hungry, Poland, they are just catching the edge of it, while your boat is sitting it out in the middle of it, some captains are better than others!

Was your blood boiling Thursday asperity, seeing all these NHS workers singing and dancing on TV?

 

 

So with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight you can sit on the sidelines carping at the government's handling of the crisis. So tell me this, how many deaths would you suggest that the government should have tolerated before shutting down the country - 1? 10? 100? 1000? How many would you have tolerated if the decision was yours?

No my blood wasn't boiling. Actually I never get upset by anything I see on TV because I avoid the BBC propaganda service like the plague.

[Observer II]

Asp; even the  thickest should have recognised an epidemic, as soon as the news managed to get out of China.  In fact the CIA gave unheeded warnings of it, months before the world knew, but were ignored.  The WHO then dragged their heels before declaring a pandemic, by which time thousands of flights were allowed to travel around the globe spreading the virus. So, imo the lockdown, or perhaps more accurately lockout,  should have been called when China admitted to an epidemic.  As I keep saying  ad nauseam;  epidemics have to be isolated at the earliest moment possible to contain them and prevent spread; unless nipped in the bud they go global.     😷

[asperity]

You can keep saying ad nauseam as much as you like Obs, but it's not going to alter the situation we are in. As for recognising the epidemic as soon as it got out of China, the WHO were denying it. When Trump called it The China virus he was called a racist. Blame the world's media for misreporting the facts.

[Observer II]

No, I blame all Governments;  they would have had intelligence reports from their Diplomats as to the real nature of this disease; on which they could have acted. Even if they repatriated Brits back to the UK, initially they were quarantined (as in the Wirral),  but this was soon forgotten, with passengers being waved through our airports and into the population.  The excuse used by Hancock was that the virus was now "prevalent" in the population - not surprising given the laxity of the situation.  It's frankly no good saying we are where we are;  they had time to prepare and plan after the SARS and MEARS scares, they even had an exercise Cerburus in 2016;   we should have been clued up and geared up. Politicians always come out with the glib statement, afterwards,  "we've learnt lessons", but the problem is, they never do.  The mind set of politics and politicians is incapable of looking beyond the next election,  so any notions of being prepared for this in the future will be filed away.     The whole point of experience, is that you learn from it, in order not to repeat errors.      😷    

[Davy51]

Great to see the Labour party turning covid19 into a race issue because it seems coloured people are more susceptible to catching the virus.

[Observer II]

Perhaps the virus is racist ? !   😷

[asperity]

1 hour ago, Observer II said:

No, I blame all Governments;  they would have had intelligence reports from their Diplomats as to the real nature of this disease; on which they could have acted. Even if they repatriated Brits back to the UK, initially they were quarantined (as in the Wirral),  but this was soon forgotten, with passengers being waved through our airports and into the population.  The excuse used by Hancock was that the virus was now "prevalent" in the population - not surprising given the laxity of the situation.  It's frankly no good saying we are where we are;  they had time to prepare and plan after the SARS and MEARS scares, they even had an exercise Cerburus in 2016;   we should have been clued up and geared up. Politicians always come out with the glib statement, afterwards,  "we've learnt lessons", but the problem is, they never do.  The mind set of politics and politicians is incapable of looking beyond the next election,  so any notions of being prepared for this in the future will be filed away.     The whole point of experience, is that you learn from it, in order not to repeat errors.      😷    

And you're still at it Obs!!! Nothing you or anyone can do or say is going to change the situation we find ourselves in. There will be time enough for debates and reprisals once we get back to some semblance of normality. The people can then demand from those in positions of responsibility, from the PM down through local politicians and represntatives and the likes of PHE and NHS management, that they start earning their keep by doing the jobs they are so handsomely rewarded for.

To keep repeating what should have been done 3 or 4 months ago is not helpful and is, quite frankly, boring!

[Observer II]

Well it's not actually;   as there are now politicians from right and left,  arguing for an end to lockdown; so the argument is current.   If these idiots prevail, we'll see an upsurge in cases and no doubt deaths.     😷

[asperity]

23 minutes ago, Observer II said:

Well it's not actually;   as there are now politicians from right and left,  arguing for an end to lockdown; so the argument is current.   If these idiots prevail, we'll see an upsurge in cases and no doubt deaths.     😷

What you're saying here will not be affected by navel-gazing at what should or should not have been done 3 or 4 months ago. And why shouldn't people debate how the government should act? Isn't that the job of politicians to hold the government to account and express conflicting opinions? You may be right but  on the other hand those that you call "idiots" (because you don't agree with them) may be right, and are entitled to their opinion. It's called freedom of speech.