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Motorway woes

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9 hours ago, Evil Sid said:

Several points that would make me think twice about a flying taxi.

1. How do they cope at a hundred feet if the power suddenly goes out?

2. How prone are they to damage by bird strike?

3. how far away would the emergency pilot be?

lag in a flying vehicle control situation would be disastrous. vehicle veers to left pilot adjusts but due to lag over compensates as nothing seems to be happening straight away. realises he has now a vehicle that is veering to the right and again overcompensates due to lag. eventual result one flying taxi parked in the side of a building.

anybody who has played any sort of multiplayer flying or shooting type game on the web will know what i mean.

I don't think you get to control the drone, you set your destination and the computers do the flying.

What difference does it make how far away the emergency pilot is?

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7 hours ago, grey_man said:

I am sorry Gray Man I don't really get your links, second links says they are allowing test cars in Paris, so what, they have already tested autonomous vehicles in Tokyo and in the videolink you provided  I do not see the autonomous car battling peak time narrow city center streets with lots of pedestrians or cyclists as suggested by the intro. There apparently is a  autonomous taxi service operating in Tokyo along a set route, but I have tried to find out more about this and it seems it still has a driver (I think).

Your third link (although not watched all the videos yet) says they may be a test flight  for a few minutes this year and when will space tourism start?

Your first link is blocked

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7 hours ago, grey_man said:

I am sorry Gray Man I don't really get your links, second links says they are allowing test cars in Paris, so what, they have already tested autonomous vehicles in Tokyo and in the videolink you provided  I do not see the autonomous car battling peak time narrow city center streets with lots of pedestrians or cyclists as suggested by the intro. There apparently is a  autonomous taxi service operating in Tokyo along a set route, but I have tried to find out more about this and it seems it still has a driver (I think).

Your third link (although not watched all the videos yet) says they may be a test flight  for a few minutes this year and when will space tourism start?

Your first link is blocked

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The links show that the technology is being introduced in limited ways right now, as I suggested; city centres on specified routes and limited freight applications. Basically, it's already with us and there's a good reason why the world's car makers are investing so much money in the tech, albeit that there are lots of problems to overcome. 

Space tourism is clearly imminent. 

The FT article says that D B Schenker is about to get a licence to carry freight on a hundred miles of Swedish public roads. I've cut and paste the article below. 

 

Swedish autonomous vehicle start-up Einride and German logistics group DB Schenker expect regulatory approval within weeks allowing an all-electric, driverless truck to carry freight on a public road.

The two groups said the permit would be a world first, enabling the commercial operation of a battery-powered truck to operate without a driver, following a pilot phase in operation since early November.

“An all-electric, autonomous truck has never been put to commercial use before,” said Filip Lilja, who co-founded Einride in 2016 alongside Robert Falck, a former Volvo Trucks executive.

Einride and DB Schenker each said they expected to gain the permit by January.

The 7.5-tonne “smart container on wheels” is called the T-Pod. Resembling a Star Wars stormtrooper helmet, the vehicle lacks a steering wheel or foot pedal — or even a driver cabin, which can be half the cost of building a truck — offering more room for freight.

Powered by the Nvidia Drive platform, a powerful graphic card to process real-time, high-resolution visual data from the sensors and radar, the vehicle is considered “Level 4” Autonomous. An operator, sitting hundreds of miles away, can supervise up to 10 vehicles at once and take over when needed to navigate difficult terrain. To achieve “Level 5” a vehicle must operate without a driver in all conditions.


The T-Pod is a 7.5-tonne 'smart container on wheels' and does not have a steering wheel or foot pedal
“There is no driver in the vehicle, but there is a possibility to remotely drive it, almost like a drone,” said Jochen Thewes, chief executive of the logistics company owned by Deutsche Bahn.

The Swedish Transport Agency already allows the T-Pod to operate as a pilot project going back and forth between two DB Schenker warehouses in Jonkoping, central Sweden. The agency said it was reviewing an application that would allow the vehicle to operate commercially but it declined to say how long it would take.

The distance the single T-Pod would travel is quite short, just six miles a day and on only 100m of public roads where it would encounter human driver vehicles, but Mr Falck maintained it would still be a milestone achievement.

“The Wright brothers flew 300 metres the first time they took off,” he said. “History is made in small steps.”

Einride, a top 10 finalist in Sir Richard Branson’s 2019 “Extreme Tech Challenge,” has just 55 employees, most of whom are engineers. 

In addition to the T-Pod for transferring goods, the T-Log, its newest model, is made for hauling up to 16,000kg of timber over forest roads.


The T-Log is made for hauling up to 16,000kg of timber over forest roads
Mr Thewes said the partnership was symbolic of how the wider logistics industry is maintaining its competitive edge against a host of technology groups pushing into its territory. For DB Schenker to succeed, he said, it must win the “war for talent” by taking the lead in reducing carbon emissions and introducing cutting-edge technology.

“The industry we are in is, by definition, one of the biggest polluters out there,” he said. “[But] we have the means, the capability to do something about it.”

Einride has no intention of selling the vehicles; rather, it leases them and works with clients on a service model. Another client engaging in a pilot project is Lidl, the German grocery chain.

For freight customers the lack of a driver, lower fuel costs, and ability to operate day and night should be an attractive proposition, Mr Lilja said.

“Crunch the numbers, and it’s clear that self-driving technology combined with electrification is the future of road freight transport,” he added.
 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Milky said:

I don't think you get to control the drone, you set your destination and the computers do the flying.

What difference does it make how far away the emergency pilot is?

I would not want to control it, but how reliable are the computers that are used. Having a complete power failure even for a second would cause the system to reboot. even the fastest take a minute or two to get the operating system installed. by which time you are down on the ground or slightly be;low it depending on what height you were at at the time.

The distance of the emergency pilot should not make a difference, however, the further away they are then the more chance of lag being an issue. (besides which would you want some guy in the middle of the outback taking control of your london flying cab, ok maybe yes if it was an emergency i suppose)

autonomous vehicles will only be really effective when they are the only vehicles on the road.

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56 minutes ago, Davy51 said:

Removing a driver from a goods vehicle will not save on pollutants , but it will destroy jobs.

Absolutely right. And not just the drivers. Anybody working in logistics needs to be thinking about their future.  

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6 hours ago, grey_man said:

The links show that the technology is being introduced in limited ways right now, as I suggested; city centres on specified routes and limited freight applications. Basically, it's already with us and there's a good reason why the world's car makers are investing so much money in the tech, albeit that there are lots of problems to overcome. 

Space tourism is clearly imminent. 

The FT article says that D B Schenker is about to get a licence to carry freight on a hundred miles of Swedish public roads. I've cut and paste the article below. 

 

Swedish autonomous vehicle start-up Einride and German logistics group DB Schenker expect regulatory approval within weeks allowing an all-electric, driverless truck to carry freight on a public road.

The two groups said the permit would be a world first, enabling the commercial operation of a battery-powered truck to operate without a driver, following a pilot phase in operation since early November.

“An all-electric, autonomous truck has never been put to commercial use before,” said Filip Lilja, who co-founded Einride in 2016 alongside Robert Falck, a former Volvo Trucks executive.

Einride and DB Schenker each said they expected to gain the permit by January.

The 7.5-tonne “smart container on wheels” is called the T-Pod. Resembling a Star Wars stormtrooper helmet, the vehicle lacks a steering wheel or foot pedal — or even a driver cabin, which can be half the cost of building a truck — offering more room for freight.

Powered by the Nvidia Drive platform, a powerful graphic card to process real-time, high-resolution visual data from the sensors and radar, the vehicle is considered “Level 4” Autonomous. An operator, sitting hundreds of miles away, can supervise up to 10 vehicles at once and take over when needed to navigate difficult terrain. To achieve “Level 5” a vehicle must operate without a driver in all conditions.


The T-Pod is a 7.5-tonne 'smart container on wheels' and does not have a steering wheel or foot pedal
“There is no driver in the vehicle, but there is a possibility to remotely drive it, almost like a drone,” said Jochen Thewes, chief executive of the logistics company owned by Deutsche Bahn.

The Swedish Transport Agency already allows the T-Pod to operate as a pilot project going back and forth between two DB Schenker warehouses in Jonkoping, central Sweden. The agency said it was reviewing an application that would allow the vehicle to operate commercially but it declined to say how long it would take.

The distance the single T-Pod would travel is quite short, just six miles a day and on only 100m of public roads where it would encounter human driver vehicles, but Mr Falck maintained it would still be a milestone achievement.

“The Wright brothers flew 300 metres the first time they took off,” he said. “History is made in small steps.”

Einride, a top 10 finalist in Sir Richard Branson’s 2019 “Extreme Tech Challenge,” has just 55 employees, most of whom are engineers. 

In addition to the T-Pod for transferring goods, the T-Log, its newest model, is made for hauling up to 16,000kg of timber over forest roads.


The T-Log is made for hauling up to 16,000kg of timber over forest roads
Mr Thewes said the partnership was symbolic of how the wider logistics industry is maintaining its competitive edge against a host of technology groups pushing into its territory. For DB Schenker to succeed, he said, it must win the “war for talent” by taking the lead in reducing carbon emissions and introducing cutting-edge technology.

“The industry we are in is, by definition, one of the biggest polluters out there,” he said. “[But] we have the means, the capability to do something about it.”

Einride has no intention of selling the vehicles; rather, it leases them and works with clients on a service model. Another client engaging in a pilot project is Lidl, the German grocery chain.

For freight customers the lack of a driver, lower fuel costs, and ability to operate day and night should be an attractive proposition, Mr Lilja said.

“Crunch the numbers, and it’s clear that self-driving technology combined with electrification is the future of road freight transport,” he added.
 

 

 

I understand that these vehicles are coming, with all the resources being put into the technology it is bound to come, but it is a long time in development and is running an autonomous truck on a straight road with a remote driver a huge break through?

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6 hours ago, grey_man said:

The links show that the technology is being introduced in limited ways right now, as I suggested; city centres on specified routes and limited freight applications. Basically, it's already with us and there's a good reason why the world's car makers are investing so much money in the tech, albeit that there are lots of problems to overcome. 

Space tourism is clearly imminent. 

The FT article says that D B Schenker is about to get a licence to carry freight on a hundred miles of Swedish public roads. I've cut and paste the article below. 

 

Swedish autonomous vehicle start-up Einride and German logistics group DB Schenker expect regulatory approval within weeks allowing an all-electric, driverless truck to carry freight on a public road.

The two groups said the permit would be a world first, enabling the commercial operation of a battery-powered truck to operate without a driver, following a pilot phase in operation since early November.

“An all-electric, autonomous truck has never been put to commercial use before,” said Filip Lilja, who co-founded Einride in 2016 alongside Robert Falck, a former Volvo Trucks executive.

Einride and DB Schenker each said they expected to gain the permit by January.

The 7.5-tonne “smart container on wheels” is called the T-Pod. Resembling a Star Wars stormtrooper helmet, the vehicle lacks a steering wheel or foot pedal — or even a driver cabin, which can be half the cost of building a truck — offering more room for freight.

Powered by the Nvidia Drive platform, a powerful graphic card to process real-time, high-resolution visual data from the sensors and radar, the vehicle is considered “Level 4” Autonomous. An operator, sitting hundreds of miles away, can supervise up to 10 vehicles at once and take over when needed to navigate difficult terrain. To achieve “Level 5” a vehicle must operate without a driver in all conditions.


The T-Pod is a 7.5-tonne 'smart container on wheels' and does not have a steering wheel or foot pedal
“There is no driver in the vehicle, but there is a possibility to remotely drive it, almost like a drone,” said Jochen Thewes, chief executive of the logistics company owned by Deutsche Bahn.

The Swedish Transport Agency already allows the T-Pod to operate as a pilot project going back and forth between two DB Schenker warehouses in Jonkoping, central Sweden. The agency said it was reviewing an application that would allow the vehicle to operate commercially but it declined to say how long it would take.

The distance the single T-Pod would travel is quite short, just six miles a day and on only 100m of public roads where it would encounter human driver vehicles, but Mr Falck maintained it would still be a milestone achievement.

“The Wright brothers flew 300 metres the first time they took off,” he said. “History is made in small steps.”

Einride, a top 10 finalist in Sir Richard Branson’s 2019 “Extreme Tech Challenge,” has just 55 employees, most of whom are engineers. 

In addition to the T-Pod for transferring goods, the T-Log, its newest model, is made for hauling up to 16,000kg of timber over forest roads.


The T-Log is made for hauling up to 16,000kg of timber over forest roads
Mr Thewes said the partnership was symbolic of how the wider logistics industry is maintaining its competitive edge against a host of technology groups pushing into its territory. For DB Schenker to succeed, he said, it must win the “war for talent” by taking the lead in reducing carbon emissions and introducing cutting-edge technology.

“The industry we are in is, by definition, one of the biggest polluters out there,” he said. “[But] we have the means, the capability to do something about it.”

Einride has no intention of selling the vehicles; rather, it leases them and works with clients on a service model. Another client engaging in a pilot project is Lidl, the German grocery chain.

For freight customers the lack of a driver, lower fuel costs, and ability to operate day and night should be an attractive proposition, Mr Lilja said.

“Crunch the numbers, and it’s clear that self-driving technology combined with electrification is the future of road freight transport,” he added.
 

 

 

I understand that these vehicles are coming, with all the resources being put into the technology it is bound to come, but it is a long time in development and is running an autonomous truck on a straight road with a remote driver a huge break through?

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6 hours ago, grey_man said:

The links show that the technology is being introduced in limited ways right now, as I suggested; city centres on specified routes and limited freight applications. Basically, it's already with us and there's a good reason why the world's car makers are investing so much money in the tech, albeit that there are lots of problems to overcome. 

Space tourism is clearly imminent. 

The FT article says that D B Schenker is about to get a licence to carry freight on a hundred miles of Swedish public roads. I've cut and paste the article below. 

 

Swedish autonomous vehicle start-up Einride and German logistics group DB Schenker expect regulatory approval within weeks allowing an all-electric, driverless truck to carry freight on a public road.

The two groups said the permit would be a world first, enabling the commercial operation of a battery-powered truck to operate without a driver, following a pilot phase in operation since early November.

“An all-electric, autonomous truck has never been put to commercial use before,” said Filip Lilja, who co-founded Einride in 2016 alongside Robert Falck, a former Volvo Trucks executive.

Einride and DB Schenker each said they expected to gain the permit by January.

The 7.5-tonne “smart container on wheels” is called the T-Pod. Resembling a Star Wars stormtrooper helmet, the vehicle lacks a steering wheel or foot pedal — or even a driver cabin, which can be half the cost of building a truck — offering more room for freight.

Powered by the Nvidia Drive platform, a powerful graphic card to process real-time, high-resolution visual data from the sensors and radar, the vehicle is considered “Level 4” Autonomous. An operator, sitting hundreds of miles away, can supervise up to 10 vehicles at once and take over when needed to navigate difficult terrain. To achieve “Level 5” a vehicle must operate without a driver in all conditions.


The T-Pod is a 7.5-tonne 'smart container on wheels' and does not have a steering wheel or foot pedal
“There is no driver in the vehicle, but there is a possibility to remotely drive it, almost like a drone,” said Jochen Thewes, chief executive of the logistics company owned by Deutsche Bahn.

The Swedish Transport Agency already allows the T-Pod to operate as a pilot project going back and forth between two DB Schenker warehouses in Jonkoping, central Sweden. The agency said it was reviewing an application that would allow the vehicle to operate commercially but it declined to say how long it would take.

The distance the single T-Pod would travel is quite short, just six miles a day and on only 100m of public roads where it would encounter human driver vehicles, but Mr Falck maintained it would still be a milestone achievement.

“The Wright brothers flew 300 metres the first time they took off,” he said. “History is made in small steps.”

Einride, a top 10 finalist in Sir Richard Branson’s 2019 “Extreme Tech Challenge,” has just 55 employees, most of whom are engineers. 

In addition to the T-Pod for transferring goods, the T-Log, its newest model, is made for hauling up to 16,000kg of timber over forest roads.


The T-Log is made for hauling up to 16,000kg of timber over forest roads
Mr Thewes said the partnership was symbolic of how the wider logistics industry is maintaining its competitive edge against a host of technology groups pushing into its territory. For DB Schenker to succeed, he said, it must win the “war for talent” by taking the lead in reducing carbon emissions and introducing cutting-edge technology.

“The industry we are in is, by definition, one of the biggest polluters out there,” he said. “[But] we have the means, the capability to do something about it.”

Einride has no intention of selling the vehicles; rather, it leases them and works with clients on a service model. Another client engaging in a pilot project is Lidl, the German grocery chain.

For freight customers the lack of a driver, lower fuel costs, and ability to operate day and night should be an attractive proposition, Mr Lilja said.

“Crunch the numbers, and it’s clear that self-driving technology combined with electrification is the future of road freight transport,” he added.
 

 

 

I understand that these vehicles are coming, with all the resources being put into the technology it is bound to come, but it is a long time in development and is running an autonomous truck on a straight road with a remote driver a huge break through?

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1 hour ago, grey_man said:

Absolutely right. And not just the drivers. Anybody working in logistics needs to be thinking about their future.  

I recall many years ago going into a Tetra Pack factory in Wrexham and seeing carriers  running round with no drivers.

About 10 years ago I was in Kelloggs factory in Trafford Park and delivery trucks being  loaded by a computer controlled system, no fork lift truck drivers.

So the technology for partly autonomous vehicles have been around for years and could have probably been adopted for road vehicles.

 

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Sorry for the multiple posts but the system is not refreshing to the posted thread when I press the save/post button

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2 hours ago, Milky said:

I understand that these vehicles are coming, with all the resources being put into the technology it is bound to come, but it is a long time in development and is running an autonomous truck on a straight road with a remote driver a huge break through?

That's not the end game  The quick wins will be in freight and restricted city centre routes. Then we'll move on. 

The paradox is that it may all lead to an increase in traffic as more people will be able to use cars who currently can't while delivery vehicles work round the clock.

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People who don't currently drive will generally have a partner that drives for them or they're quite happy to use public transport. I suspect the biggest reason for this is that the high cost of running a second car isn't justifiable so given that, I can't see many shelling out the vast amounts that these fully autonomous cars are going to cost.  

All the leading manufacturers claim that these cars will be available by 2021 and all have video's showing just how good they are but in reality they still have a long way to go. Take a look at this video shot this year that shows the true state of development.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jf1ZM-ho4o

 

Bill :)

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39 minutes ago, Bill said:

People who don't currently drive will generally have a partner that drives for them or they're quite happy to use public transport. I suspect the biggest reason for this is that the high cost of running a second car isn't justifiable so given that, I can't see many shelling out the vast amounts that these fully autonomous cars are going to cost.  

All the leading manufacturers claim that these cars will be available by 2021 and all have video's showing just how good they are but in reality they still have a long way to go. Take a look at this video shot this year that shows the true state of development.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jf1ZM-ho4o

 

Bill :)

People won't necessarily own the cars. That's the point. 

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Interesting.   I've already admitted to being a Lycra warrior, so I can tell this without embarrassment.  In the early 1950's, I would ride with 20 Warrington Road Club guys, from Bridge Foot to Bala and back on training rides.  We would go straight up Chester Road, thru Chester, under the clock and thru Wales  and only see three cars and four trucks all day.

Personal observations: slow, cautious drivers cause more confusion and potential accidents than fast drivers (not maniacs).  We have lots of highways with 80 mph limits and the traffic moves smoothly, with good spacing between vehicles.  We also have roads where the health and safety nerds reduced the limit from 65 to 45 for no apparent reason and there are now accidents caused by frustrated drivers, trying to make chancy passing moves.

I recently spent two weeks driving in the U.K.and it was not a pleasant experience.  Observations:  Every UK driver appears to be a 'boy racer' regardless of age.  Too many traffic circles, badly signed and play grounds for the aforesaid boy racers.    Unavoidable I know, but the rural roads are too narrow for the devil may care general driving styles.  Avoidable :  The motorways are too narrow for comfort, driving on a straight, multi laned highway should be a relaxing occupation, but the motorways are so tight that it is a stressful event at any speed.

Answer, move to Texas where you can drive on cruise control for twelve hours and never see a red light!

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19 hours ago, grey_man said:

Well done Virgin!!! Can't run a train on time but managed to get a rocket into space.

I was going to go to Italy next year but might consider two weeks in space instead :)

Seriously it is a breakthrough and everyone at Virgin should be very proud, but just like the Tesla self drive car there is a long way to go.

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16 hours ago, Milky said:

Well done Virgin!!! Can't run a train on time but managed to get a rocket into space.

I was going to go to Italy next year but might consider two weeks in space instead :)

Seriously it is a breakthrough and everyone at Virgin should be very proud, but just like the Tesla self drive car there is a long way to go.

Well not really given unless you think next Spring is a long way? 

Then again of course the fact that there are already self driving cars on the roads hasn't convinced you that there will ever be self driving cars on the roads. :)

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4 hours ago, grey_man said:

Well not really given unless you think next Spring is a long way? 

Then again of course the fact that there are already self driving cars on the roads hasn't convinced you that there will ever be self driving cars on the roads. :)

First read what I wrote Grey Man!

Apart for some experimental vehicles where are these cars?  Even the experimental ones have humans over seeing them.

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You have Google just like I do. There's already a limited commercial passenger service operated by Waymo in Phoenix but they're being run all over the world, including the UK. The fact that they're still in development and Governments are trying to introduce legislation for them doesn't mean they don't exist. 

I've only ever claimed on here that right now they'll be introduced slowly in city centres and on certain roads and only then in limited ways. I just think this is all further along than most people realise and that the more widespread application closer than they think. 

Doesn't the fact that all of the world's major tech and automotive companies are investing huge amounts of money in the technology tell you anything?

 

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8 hours ago, grey_man said:

You have Google just like I do. There's already a limited commercial passenger service operated by Waymo in Phoenix but they're being run all over the world, including the UK. The fact that they're still in development and Governments are trying to introduce legislation for them doesn't mean they don't exist. 

I've only ever claimed on here that right now they'll be introduced slowly in city centres and on certain roads and only then in limited ways. I just think this is all further along than most people realise and that the more widespread application closer than they think. 

Doesn't the fact that all of the world's major tech and automotive companies are investing huge amounts of money in the technology tell you anything?

 

Dear Gray Man, I agree. What are we going to argue over now?

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Have to wonder though about the autonomous vehicles trade.

At present it is only commercial passengers "taxi's" running limited services under trial.

If taxi type service is to be the trend then surely car manufacturers will eventually put themselves out of business as they will just be supplying to passenger transport businesses and not to private owners, their sole trade being the replacement of ageing fleet vehicles.

Call me suspicious grey man but the fact that they are investing huge sums into this does make me think that they are getting equally huge sums from various gov grants, tax relief and such to do so. After all these companies ARE out to make money at the end of the day even if they do say that they are making a loss. (Making a loss to them is only making ten million a year instead of eleven)

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16 hours ago, Milky said:

Dear Gray Man, I agree. What are we going to argue over now?

I didn't even realise we were arguing :)
 

 

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2 hours ago, Evil Sid said:

Have to wonder though about the autonomous vehicles trade.

At present it is only commercial passengers "taxi's" running limited services under trial.

If taxi type service is to be the trend then surely car manufacturers will eventually put themselves out of business as they will just be supplying to passenger transport businesses and not to private owners, their sole trade being the replacement of ageing fleet vehicles.

Call me suspicious grey man but the fact that they are investing huge sums into this does make me think that they are getting equally huge sums from various gov grants, tax relief and such to do so. After all these companies ARE out to make money at the end of the day even if they do say that they are making a loss. (Making a loss to them is only making ten million a year instead of eleven)

They see it as inevitable. One of the many problems is that there's some common idea it will all reduce traffic when it's pretty clear from the evidence it will actually increase traffic while possibly reducing private car ownership. 

Like most of these things, especially in retail, it's likely to be a bad thing for a lot of people. I hope it doesn't look like I'm advocating for it. 

Self-driving cars aren't even the most disruptive tech we're about to see. There's some very weird research going on into neural links and other things by Google for example. 

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