pentone1 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I am trying to research the history of our house called The Red House in Higher Walton next to Bennetts farm. We don't have any idea how old it is or whether it was ever a working farm at one stage or who built it and why. Can anyone help please??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Welcome to the forum and although I can’t be much help, I’m sure some of the others here will be able to give you the complete history. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Hi Pentone1 and like Bill has already said... 'welcome to the forum'. Can't say I have ever heard of the 'Red House' but then again I've never looked. I do know Bennetts Farm though. Is it (or was it) also known as Hollyhedge Farm? Hollyhedge Farm is shown on the maps dating back until 1877 and possibly even before but where abouts in relationship to current day Bennets/Hollyhedge is the 'Red House' and what road is it on as I will have another look tomorrow and I'll also check out the census records too. The person who is most likely to be able to help is forum member Algy though as he knows everything about everywhere and if he doesn't know it he can usually find it. He's like our very own local history department ain't you Algy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Pedro should know the answer. Depends on whether he looks in or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 I am trying to research the history of our house called The Red House in Higher Walton next to Bennetts farm. We don't have any idea how old it is or whether it was ever a working farm at one stage or who built it and why. Can anyone help please??? Pentone1, assuming that by Bennetts Farm you mean 'Hollyhedge'Farm' I hope the following helps your search for information on 'The Red House'. I don't believe it was ever a working farm, the cottages would have been farmworkers dwellings, The Red House would have been built as a private residence probably by a business owner from Warrington, taking the opportunity to live in the countryside, Dizzy my be able to help you in that direction. The Tithe Map of 1841 shows Plot 162 in the Township of Acton Grange in the Parish of Runcorn, occupied by a cottage/cottages and yard owned by Sir Richard Brooke of Norton Priory, let to a tenant by the name of Knowles Massey, the use of the property indicated as ‘Building’?. The cottage/cottages described stand approx. 100mtrs North by North west of Hollyhedge Farm on what was the main Warrington to Chester Road (now Underbridge Lane), at that time there was another cottage a few mtrs closer to the canal on the opposite side of the road occupied by a John Massey, probably a relative of Knowles Massey. Looking at a photo of ‘The Red House as it stands today, it appears to be mid-Victorian, having typical heavy stone lintels over the windows and may have been built on the site of the earlier cottage/cottages?, as the Tithe map appears to indicate two adjoining cottages on the plot, just my personal opinion, Dizzy may be able to help you with who lived there over the decades 1841 - 1911. (won't you Dizz!). CLICK ON THE MAPS TO ENLARGE THEM. 1841 Tithe Map. 1877 Map. 1896 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Dizzy may be able to help you with who lived there over the decades 1841 - 1911. (won't you Dizz!). Errrm I shall try Algy. Got to go out but will have a look later. Question though...... On the 1851 census it shows in order Elms Lodge Elms Hall John Massey (Chester Raod, Acton Grange) Knowles Massey (Chester Raod, Acton Grange) Hollyhedge Farm So am I definately supposed to be looking for the house Knowles lived in in 1841 and 1851 before I search, and come back with the completely wrong info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Errrm I shall try Algy. Got to go out but will have a look later. Question though...... On the 1851 census it shows in order Elms Lodge Elms Hall John Massey (Chester Raod, Acton Grange) Knowles Massey (Chester Raod, Acton Grange) Hollyhedge Farm So am I definately supposed to be looking for the house Knowles lived in in 1841 and 1851 before I search, and come back with the completely wrong info Dizz, I don't think the focus at the moment is specifically on the Massey family but on the property, it looks to me as if those cottages where Knowles Massey was living were farm cottages linked to Hollyhedge Farm, what I would like to know is when (if they were) knocked down and 'The Red House' appears on the census (if it does) a change of name on a census may give us a clue. I HAVE ADDED ANOTHER MAP TO MY FIRST REPLY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pentone1 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Thanks very much everyone! The existance of two cottages prior to the building of The Red House would explain the vast quantities of rubble buried in the garden! It would interesting to know how old they were and what the may have been used for. There is quite a lot of iron ore in the garden so perhaps a smithy?? Theres a cottage on mill lane behind our house which I believe was originally Tudor and known as a basketmakers cottage so the area has been inhabited for a fair few years! Behind our house there is a barn/ stable and behind that an old piggery both of brick but again we aren't sure whether they were built the same time as the house or predate it. My guess is they were built together but who knows!! Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Quite interesting. a friend of mine viewed that house when it was up for sale last year. ( I think it was that house,) If it was the same the owners wanted nearly £600k but my mate wasn't prepared to offer more than £500k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pentone1 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Hi Algy, do you know what the checked area on the 1896 map is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Hi Algy, do you know what the checked area on the 1896 map is? Usually represents greenhouses/glasshouses, I would have thought you may have found a lot of glass debris?. This section of an 1875 OS map shows the Walton village smithy situated on the roadside rounabout where the travellers community are now, interesting to see there was another pub in Walton called "The Bull's Head Inn" just under the canal bridge from you and where the traffic lights are now sited also "The Walton Arms" was then called "The Bay Horse Inn", How things and times change. C1875 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pentone1 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 We haven't found much glass but a lot of bricks and pottery. Is there any way of finding out how old the cottages were? Also when does the Red House first appear on census records? Amazing that such a small village had two pubs but I guess it was on the Greenall estate so no surprise there! Thanks v much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Algy... thanks for the other maps and I was only asking about the 'Massey' name as it's a bit easier to find the right place to start off from with a name on the 1841/51 census so I could search other census with the same name, neighbours names etc etc over the census years. Well that was the plan anyway ha ha Aaargh !!! This one is hard though and I was doing ok but I've lost may way completely now since I got near the 1881 census there seemed to have been a 'cottage boom' I can tell you who lived in the Basketmakers House though (as it is called on the census in 1851)Pentone1 It was a Mr Henry Wilson age 40 (basket maker.. obviously) and his wife and 8 kids...3 of them were assistant's to their father ie basket making. I wont bore you with all their names but re my earlier post where I said "On the 1851 census it shows in order".... the ones in red are the next ones which I didn’t bother mentioning at the time Elms Lodge Elms Hall John Massey (Chester Road, Acton Grange) Knowles Massey (Chester Raod, Acton Grange) Hollyhedge Farm - Thomas Taylor Chester Road - Samual Parson Basket Makers House - Henry Wilson Holly Hedge Cottage - Mary Southern Holly Hedge Cottage - John Whittaker Brookers? Farm - William ??Livain?? Hollyhedge Cottage - James Johnson (age 79) Hollyhedge Cottage - Peter Johnson (age 34) Runcorn Road No blummin' help to you at all though ..... I KNOW... but I though I;d mention it as Algy may suddenly come up with something...I will keep looking too So far I have not found any reference at all to a house actually called ‘The Red House’ on any of the census returns. I have just tried going backwards from the 1911 census of the area instead to see if that is any easier by just searching for ‘runcorn’ (NO NAMES) and suprisingly there is still a ‘Margaret Massey’ aged 76 – florist and market gardener’ living in a cottage next to Holly Hedge Farm. My thought is that this could ‘maybe’ be the right house as if it was larger and had remained in the same family for so many years then it could well have survived while others around it were demolished. Is this your ‘The Red House’ ???? …. God only knows as I have brain freeze now. Maybe tomorrow my brain will wake up and this big muddly puddle will become crystal clear. PS… what sort of pottery have you dug up ? Check it out incase it’s Roman as you are not far from me and there’s been a lot found around here including cremation urns and kilns. PPS.... do you have the brief land registry 'Title Deed' for your house as that can often show some useful info as quite often when houses were built there were leases between land owner or covenants mentioned/attached which give an insight into the year of build etc. Thats how I found mine was built but alas mine was just after 1911 (ie the last viewable census) It only cost's £4 to immediately download it from the official Land Registry Site once you have registered.... STAY AWAY FROME ONES OF A SIMILAR NAME THOUGH WHICH WILL CHARGE YOU A FORTUNE. I was going to look for you but I can't remember my damn password as I've not used it for over 6 months Sorry about all the typos but I'm half asleep and typing one handed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Sorry about all the typos but I'm half asleep and typing one handed Doesn't everyone type one handed? :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 "On the 1851 census it shows in order".... the ones in red are the next ones which I didn’t bother mentioning at the time Elms Lodge Elms Hall John Massey (Chester Road, Acton Grange) Knowles Massey (Chester Raod, Acton Grange) Hollyhedge Farm - Thomas Taylor Chester Road - Samual Parson Basket Makers House - Henry Wilson Holly Hedge Cottage - Mary Southern Holly Hedge Cottage - John Whittaker Brookers? Farm - William ??Livain?? Hollyhedge Cottage - James Johnson (age 79) Hollyhedge Cottage - Peter Johnson (age 34) Runcorn Road No blummin' help to you at all though ..... I KNOW... but I though I;d mention it as Algy may suddenly come up with something...I will keep looking too So far I have not found any reference at all to a house actually called ‘The Red House’ on any of the census returns. I have just tried going backwards from the 1911 census of the area instead to see if that is any easier by just searching for ‘runcorn’ (NO NAMES) and suprisingly there is still a ‘Margaret Massey’ aged 76 – florist and market gardener’ living in a cottage next to Holly Hedge Farm. My thought is that this could ‘maybe’ be the right house as if it was larger and had remained in the same family for so many years then it could well have survived while others around it were demolished. Is this your ‘The Red House’ ???? …. God only knows as I have brain freeze now. Dizzy I don't have much to contribute other than I think you are correct regarding Margaret Massey running a market garden business from "The Red House" as the map below of 1910 shows the area of glass houses have expanded since the map of 1896 (compare the two maps below), Margaret is possibly the daughter of Knowles (b 1797)and his wife Ann nee Maddock married Daresbury 27th May 1824, is it possible that he started the market garden business and was so successful that he could have afforded to build "The Red House"?, will we ever know. ADDITION; In Slaters Directory 1895, Mrs Margaret Massey is given as a Fruiterer & Florist - Market Hall. 1896 1910 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pentone1 Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Hi thanks everyone. It's all a bit of a mystery! Firstly having had a look at the maps, it seems to be that the buildings shown on the 1896 and 1910 maps are different. They seem to be in different locations which makes me think that the cottage or at least one was still standing in 1896. It's location appears to be next to the road whereas the new red house on the 1910 map is set back slightly. What is even odder is that the 1911 census refers to a cottage still being occupied ( by Mary Knowles) but the 1910 map clearly shows the new house! Anyway the red house looks to have been built by someone with money as Algy says. DIizzy, the title deeds we have only go back to the early 1960s when the property was sold by what appears to be the Greenall estate and I had always assumed that the house was built for the estate perhaps for a land manager? This is complete guesswork! Also the pottery looks to me like Victorian garden pots and there is also some clay earthenware but am no expert and it could be Roman?! What does the local Roman pottery look like and is it worth me getting in touch with the Museum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Hi thanks everyone. It's all a bit of a mystery! Firstly having had a look at the maps, it seems to be that the buildings shown on the 1896 and 1910 maps are different. They seem to be in different locations which makes me think that the cottage or at least one was still standing in 1896. It's location appears to be next to the road whereas the new red house on the 1910 map is set back slightly. What is even odder is that the 1911 census refers to a cottage still being occupied ( by Mary Knowles) but the 1910 map clearly shows the new house! Anyway the red house looks to have been built by someone with money as Algy says. DIizzy, the title deeds we have only go back to the early 1960s when the property was sold by what appears to be the Greenall estate and I had always assumed that the house was built for the estate perhaps for a land manager? This is complete guesswork! Also the pottery looks to me like Victorian garden pots and there is also some clay earthenware but am no expert and it could be Roman?! What does the local Roman pottery look like and is it worth me getting in touch with the Museum? Pento' I agree with you, the 1896 map shows perhaps the right hand cottage (facing) and 1910 your house, also the quality of "The Red House" would have been far out of reach of a market gardener of that era to build, you are probably correct in your assumption that Greenall's built it for one of their employees. I notice on the 1910 map just under the canal bridge and to the left of Underbridge Lane there is a field named 'Nursery' and opposite a house, that may be where the Massey's had there business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Ohh heck... appologies Algy and pentone1....... The lady who was the florist and market gardener (and employer) was MARGARET Massey (not Mary). I have no idea why I typed the wrong name last night ... sorry. Margaret was the Wife of William Massey b1828 who was a shoe maker. William was the son of Knowles Massey. Knowles died in 1874 and left 'effects under £20'... maybe he had spent all his money buidding your house. (I cant find him after 1851 on the census returns though but he kay not be down as 'knowles', irrelevant anyway) 1851 cesus - William (single age 23, journeyman shoemaker) is living with Knowles at the family cottage on Chester Road 1861 William (still a shoemaker) has married Margaret and they are at Victoria Place, Prescott (could have just been visiting though) 1871 William (still a shoemaker) and Margaret are back at Chester Road Cottage 1881 William (still a shoemaker) and Margaret are back at Chester Road Cottage (although there are a lot more cottages on the census scheduled one after the other so hard to know if they are in the same one as previously) A cottage boom maybe ? 1891 - Margaret (Head of household widowed and a Greengrocer) is now shown as living PRIVATE HOUSE which is next to Holly Hedge Farm (same home maybe??) with her daughter and her hubbe son in law (surnames Birch) and also a neice (surname Dolling and a nephew (surname Ellison) and also 3 servants. All family members are assistant greengrocers to Margaret. Not as many cottages now 1901 - Margaret (Head, widow and now a Florist and Market Gardener) living in cottage and still with daugher and son-in-law plus nephew (all three surname Birch) and also an adopted child (surname Norbury) and 2 servants 1911 - Margaret (Head and retired market gardener living their with daughter an son in law (also retured although they are quite young) Probably no help what-so-ever again sorry. What does Roman pottery look like... well I'll upload a few pics of some which was found around here later. Most of it is like a redish colour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Dizzy. A cottage boom??? Maybe that's where the cottage industry started up. Where is the treasure hunter when you need him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pentone1 Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Thanks Dizzy. All very interesting indeed. Is there an address given on any of the census records? I am wondering whether the red house was named some time after it was built??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 I'm afraid not as they all just seems to say 'cottage' (Chester Road) and all like you know are 'Acton Grange'. No house numbers or anything which is very frustrating. The only time it showed different was on the 1891 census where Margaret M's house is referred to as 'PRIVATE HOUSE' (ie not cottage). I'll keep looking though ............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Have 'we' stopped now then as I'm seeing maps and enumerators in my sleep again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Have 'we' stopped now then as I'm seeing maps and enumerators in my sleep again Dizz, Unless Pento' comes back requiring more info on the subject I think it is suffice to say we have given all the information that is available to us, wouldn't mind knowing the whereabouts of Elms Hall though, I've never come across it before and can't find any reference to it anywhere, "How ya' fixed Babe" (as they say). :grin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pentone1 Posted March 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Thanks everyone for your help. Think we have probably found out as much as we can which is much more than we knew previously! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Thanks everyone for your help. Think we have probably found out as much as we can which is much more than we knew previously! Your welcome, glad to be of help!,pento'+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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