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The Jewish revolt


Observer II
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Seems the Tories aren't the only Party in disarray,  the current right-wing attempt at a coup to remove Corbyn is being stoked by the Jewish lobby, claiming he's a threat to their existence.  Perhaps someone could explain just how he is a threat to their existence ?   The facts are: that many on the left of the Labour Party have been long standing critics of Israel and it's treatment of Palastinian Arabs, which can't be construed as "anti-Semitic",  in any case, the Jews are a religious grouping not a race, the Semitic race includes all Palastinian peoples. Now to the cynic,  it could be the case, that the Muslim vote outweighs that of the Jews, hence Labour's political stance;  but the reality of all this, is an attempt by right wingers to destabilise and remove Corbyn. Such is the nature of politics.

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1 hour ago, Observer II said:

Perhaps someone could explain just how he is a threat to their existence ?   The facts are: that many on the left of the Labour Party have been long standing critics of Israel and it's treatment of Palastinian Arabs, which can't be construed as "anti-Semitic",  ...

You may need to read more widely. Those criticising Israel also seem to be close to Hamas. That organisation is pledged to the destruction of the state of Israel. If that is the political position of a party in power in this country how do you expect the people complaining to feel about that. It must indeed seem like a threat to them. I don't think it is a right wing conspiracy it is much worse than that, but from the other side....

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I'm well aware of the background and the history, and it's a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other imo.  But as I claim, this isn't about that specifically, it's about which faction will control the Labour Party,  and the Jewish issue is merely an excuse to try and destabilise the current leadership, and pave the way for the so-called moderates.  

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But do you think that getting rid of Corbyn and McDonnell would stop Momentum destroying old Labour from the bottom and promoting a new set of communist leadership? It is Momentum that is threatening the moderates with re-selection not the leadership, they are just encouraging the mob but not directing them. Lansman is surely still dangerous without Corbyn.

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Momentum or Militant or anyone else has to operate within the rules, the fight is one of changing "the rules" to suit whichever faction; the NEC and Leader play a major role. Under older rules Corbyn wouldn't even have got sufficient PLP support to even stand for Leader.  If they get rid of Corbyn, they would no doubt alter the rules again to ensure "the comrades" are kept where they belong - delivering leaflets!.  That's why the current split in Labour is probably more serious than the split in the Tory Party -  but both Parties need to start listening to and responding to the electorate,  but even the electorate are now split, as in polarised. . So a bit of a mess all round !

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The split in labour is indeed more serious as when we get Barnier's planned no deal hard Brexit the tories will all unite behind the realisation that "the EU were out to get us all along". Labour meanwhile will still be split because their enemies are inside the country and the party. The centre are convinced that the left are stealing their party. What will the majority of the electorate think I wonder?

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I think it is fair to say that the view of Hamas can be understood ,considering the state of Israel has been imposed  on their countries & ,for 70 years, has been allowed to spread its wings. The west & the UN has a lot to answer for in imposing this situation on the world  & allowing it to fester for so long.

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3 hours ago, Davy51 said:

I think it is fair to say that the view of Hamas can be understood ,considering the state of Israel has been imposed  on their countries & ,for 70 years, has been allowed to spread its wings. The west & the UN has a lot to answer for in imposing this situation on the world  & allowing it to fester for so long.

I think you need to have a good hard look at the history of the State of Israel and the number of times it has tried to come to some sort of accomodation with the "Palestinians" who will only accept one thing - the elimination of Israel and all of its inhabitants. Sobering really isn't it?

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6 hours ago, Confused52 said:

The split in labour is indeed more serious as when we get Barnier's planned no deal hard Brexit the tories will all unite behind the realisation that "the EU were out to get us all along". Labour meanwhile will still be split because their enemies are inside the country and the party. The centre are convinced that the left are stealing their party. What will the majority of the electorate think I wonder?

Unfortunately, the electorate are notoriously fickle or bovine, so anything could happen.  The old tribal working class support for Labour appears to have diminished due to the Brexit debate, but Tory supporters are not happy either with May's performance.  The educated liberal middle classes are anti-Brexit, but neither do they want Comrade Corbyn., so they're trying to find a home, possibly with the Libs or Greens.  Logic would have suggested that the last election should have been a Tory landslide, based on Leave voter support, but May cocked that up, with such nonsense as a tax on the elderly.  If Leave voters have any sense, imo they will confine their vote to pro- (hard) Brexit candidates next time. Meanwhile, this artificial split created by the right wing in Labour will no doubt continue, and divided Parties are seldom electorally successfull.

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As i pointed out before the last election, St Theresa muddied the waters by assuming that the leave voting  working classes would also embrace Tory policy. Whether her since moved on "advisers"  were a couple of "Remain" stooges we will probably never know ,but it left the Tories with a propped up working majority in Parliament  & breathed new life into Corbyn & his cohorts.Sadly, Labour is now infested with a new Militant Tendency called Momentum.

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4 hours ago, asperity said:

Why is the split "artificial"?

Perhaps the wrong word Asp:  the split is real - simple right V left;  but the reason or excuse being used (ie anti-Semitism), is not.  The idea that a Party committed to diversity and obsessed with "isms" should tie itself up in such a knot, is the supreme irony.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Recently on BBC 4 there has been  a documentary about the city of Jerusalem & how all the main religions regard it as their Holy City. It has changed hands umpteen times in its long history  & the last episode sheds some light on the recent (20th century)  problems in the middle east. It should be available on the iplayer .

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Dave, there's plenty of informative "stuff" on freeview and youtube nowadays - paticularly BBC4, ch19 AND CH94. to give a sound historical perspective. But this latest spat in the Labour Party, is imo merely a smoke screen for regime change by the right, and the longer it goes on, the less chance Labour have of being elected to power. In terms of Brexit, that may not be a bad thing.  :ph34r:

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Obs, I fear that you are thinking wishfully about it being a smokescreen. As far as I can see Jeremy Corbyn would choke on his cornflakes if he was ever required to say that the State of Israel has a right to exist. It is because he has so many relationships over so many years with those who oppose that State. A man with such an opinion so clearly on display simply could not negotiate with other countries on the UK's behalf, he is plainly unfit to govern. If the general public know that, and by now how could they not, a party led by him or his acolytes should not get into government. In first past the post you cannot choose who you don't want to win, the mechanisms are too crude. So the centre left, fear that they will be caught in the rush to not vote Labour other than in constituencies with a large number of unthinking voters. They are in self preservation mode.

The electors also know very well that voting for an also ran (Lib Dem, UKIP, Green) as a protest vote means the one you don't want might still get in. These strategies have been discovered by all but the youngest electors. This time they will be told firmly a vote other than a Tory means you get Corbyn's comrades, and it will be true ((sarc)Perhaps they will put it on the side of a bus because we know that works (sarc/))! The traitorous SNP will be at it again to promote independence at any price for the rest of us. This lot has to happen now to save the country if Brexit goes tits-up, you wanted Brexit but Labour want to turn us all Communist even more than they want Brexit. But at its heart there is truth, it is not a smokescreen.

The Anti-Semitism is real and it not having been seen and dealt with by stopping Corbyn is a demonstration of how elitist and ultimately amateurish Labour with Momentum now are, the parliamentary party must rue the day they agreed to put Corbyn up as leader to make the contest open.

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I can see a lot of logic in that Con,  but there are some shortfalls:  a) to be an Israeliphobe doesn't necessarily make one anti-jewish, given that  Jews are a religious grouping, spread globally, and neither a race or nationality, but I do agree it's hardly a qualification for a PM.  b.  the real reason, as you've suggested, is that the centre-left, as with the centre-right, realise that the old way of doing things is now in peril, and are desperate to restore the previous status quo. So basically we're left with the lesser of two extremes, which given the Brexit division should favour the right, making it, as you suggest a two horse race.  :ph34r:

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Well despite all the anti-Corbyn oil being poured onto the anti-semitism fire; it seems Momentum's full slate for the L.P  NEC  has been elected by Labour Members (CH4 news);  so it's looking like a total left wing takeover. Presumably the next stage will be the de-selection of right-wing MPs ?  Time for a new "gang of four" ?   :D

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