Labour treachery

[observer]

Well, now we know;  Corbyn has finally announced that Labour will be insisting on remaining in the customs union and single market (or something akin to it); thus selling out all those Labour voters who voted LEAVE.   This will tie us to continued EU immigration and no doubt cost us an absolute fortune for the privilege.  ET TU Jeremy.       

[Confused52]

But Warrington will STILL vote Labour don't you think?

[observer]

Depends on IQ levels I guess !!      

[asperity]

I've never expected anything other than double dealing from Labour, the enemy of the working man.

[fugtifino]

I say, "treachery" is a bit strong.

And, you're assuming everyone who voted to leave also wished to leave the single market and the customs union, which is not necessarily the case.

[fugtifino]

38 minutes ago, asperity said:

I've never expected anything other than double dealing from Labour, the enemy of the working man.

Ok, I'll bite, please explain.

[observer]

2 hours ago, fugtifino said:

I say, "treachery" is a bit strong.

And, you're assuming everyone who voted to leave also wished to leave the single market and the customs union, which is not necessarily the case.

Which part of "LEAVE", didn't you understand ?    In a divorce, you don't leave your car in the garage or your cloths in the wardrobe and pay rent for the privilege !    The single market = continued payments and immigration.  The customs union restricts our ability for wider trade deals. The ECJ overrides our own legal jurisdiction. So in effect keeping us in the EU in all but name.      

[asperity]

3 hours ago, fugtifino said:

Ok, I'll bite, please explain.

In order to maintain it's voter base the Labour Party needs the working man to at least feel downtrodden by the "Evil Tories" (who have actually morphed into another Labour Party in all but name). Thus constant propoganda about how the "Evil Tories" are selling the NHS to the lowest bidder and their "friends in the City", and the race baiting and class war rubbish.

[Confused52]

Quite so Asp. If we are in the single market then there is freedom of movement and legal equivalence of all EU states. That means no way of stopping EU nationals coming in and getting work here, or working here whilst employed at foreign rates of pay or having jobs exported to EU emote working locations. You know all the things that have driven wages down and made jobs insecure.

That means that it is now the Labour Party that wants to maintain job insecurity for the working class whilst the Tories want to stop it. Do you see now why Obs describes that as treachery Fugs? Asp has explained why maintaining that position is in Labour's Party interests, but it is not the same as the interests of the either the country or the working man himself as distinct from the Labour Party.

[Confused52]

However to be fair what I actually heard Corbyn say was having the option of a NEW Customs Union with the EU. In fact that need not be the Customs Union which is described in the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU but a new one. It could indeed be exactly the same one that the Government is already trying to negotiate. That would be more likely than not because Corbyn is very anti-EU and always has been. However perhaps it allows the other MPs in the Labour Party to think somethings changed for a while and continue to generate pain for Mrs May.

[observer]

It's possible of course, if we were to be cynical; that Jeremy just wants to placate the pro-EU Menshaviks; as he may have done the maths on the vote.  Some of the 18 pro-EU Tories may be bought off with promotions, knighthoods etc;  while the 5 anti-EU Socialists may abstain, plus those in Northern Constituencies with small majorities.   If of course they do sabotage a deal, it will be difficult for Labour to come out of it with clean hands, and Jeremy's hopes for No10 may dissappear.    

[Davy51]

I think Jezza's main aim is to cause enough mischief to bring down the government & hopefully get militant friendly Labour back in power then  stealthily overturn the referendum result by subtle negotiations that will leave the UK no different to where it is now in terms of the EU.

A lot would depend on whether Labour supporters would blindly vote for Labour based on domestic policies or go for the EU exit door & abandon Jezza. Unfortunately that same scenario is what caused Mrs May her present woes.

[observer]

Think we need to sort Brexit out first, before we start talking about a Gov spending boom, one thing at a time.     

[Latchford Locks]

On 26/02/2018 at 1:00 PM, Confused52 said:

But Warrington will STILL vote Labour don't you think?

Well I won't be !

[observer]

Seems M.Barnier has sorted the customs union issue out, by assuming Ulster will remain in it - which, in effect amount to a land grab by the EU on the part of Eire, which will no doubt be supported by the alleged friends of the IRA like JC.  And like hyenas at a kill,  Spain is demanding we hand over Gibraltar airport to their control.  The case for crashing out without a deal, and not paying them a penny just got stronger.      

[Davy51]

I think it could work with the border in the Irish sea. Because there is no direct route into mainland Britain without ferries or aircraft a ticket of some sort has to be used. All tickets generated in the north could be electronically marked to provide easy passage to the mainland. All Eire tickets could be marked differently & any southern Irish vehicles or passenger travelling to the UK via the north could be customs checked before boarding ferries or planes ,including customs for goods vehicles. 

[Latchford Locks]

And if by chance a shipload of Bulgarians and Rumanians (for example) arrived in Dublin and then they could in theory travel into Belfast and get the ferry to Liverpool and hey presto open borders have returned and the floodgates are opened !

[fugtifino]

On ‎26‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 5:01 PM, observer said:

Which part of "LEAVE", didn't you understand ?    In a divorce, you don't leave your car in the garage or your cloths in the wardrobe and pay rent for the privilege !    The single market = continued payments and immigration.  The customs union restricts our ability for wider trade deals. The ECJ overrides our own legal jurisdiction. So in effect keeping us in the EU in all but name.      

In a divorce, the terms of separation are negotiated by both parties...

[fugtifino]

On ‎26‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 5:31 PM, asperity said:

In order to maintain it's voter base the Labour Party needs the working man to at least feel downtrodden by the "Evil Tories" (who have actually morphed into another Labour Party in all but name). Thus constant propoganda about how the "Evil Tories" are selling the NHS to the lowest bidder and their "friends in the City", and the race baiting and class war rubbish.

Working people are worse off than they were 8 years ago, this isn’t an illusion and it isn't entirely of Labour's doing.

[fugtifino]

On ‎26‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 6:40 PM, Confused52 said:

Quite so Asp. If we are in the single market then there is freedom of movement and legal equivalence of all EU states. That means no way of stopping EU nationals coming in and getting work here, or working here whilst employed at foreign rates of pay or having jobs exported to EU emote working locations. You know all the things that have driven wages down and made jobs insecure.

That means that it is now the Labour Party that wants to maintain job insecurity for the working class whilst the Tories want to stop it. Do you see now why Obs describes that as treachery Fugs? Asp has explained why maintaining that position is in Labour's Party interests, but it is not the same as the interests of the either the country or the working man himself as distinct from the Labour Party.

That means that it is now the Labour Party that wants to maintain job insecurity for the working class whilst the Tories want to stop it.

Unless you can point to some convincing evidence, I’m calling bollocks on that one.

To perceive Labour as treacherous I’d expect they’d have first had to have made some kind of promise.

[observer]

1 hour ago, fugtifino said:

In a divorce, the terms of separation are negotiated by both parties...

But the evidence to-date from the antics of the EU, is that it's not a negotiation, but an attempt at humiliation; designed to deter others from leaving the EU and frighten the faint hearts in the UK into staying in it.  Also, if we rewind back, previous referendums by Eire and Holland had to be redone in order to get the result the EU wanted; and it would be no surprise, given the faint hearts in Parliament, that the EU is after a re-run of the referendum (best out three, four or five ?).       

[asperity]

2 hours ago, fugtifino said:

Working people are worse off than they were 8 years ago, this isn’t an illusion and it isn't entirely of Labour's doing.

The evidence is to the contrary, but I don't expect you to accept this because...............evil Tories.

[Davy51]

I see John Major is now getting vociferous in the demand for a second referendum. It is a pity the government of the day didn't give referendums  at each stage of the deepening Euro politicisation of the UK. The British public only consented to stay in a trading partnership but we know the rest.

[Davy51]

5 hours ago, fugtifino said:

That means that it is now the Labour Party that wants to maintain job insecurity for the working class whilst the Tories want to stop it.

Unless you can point to some convincing evidence, I’m calling bollocks on that one.

To perceive Labour as treacherous I’d expect they’d have first had to have made some kind of promise.

 

I think it is fair to say that Labour should be banging the drum for British workers to be in full time work instead of watering down terms & conditions with  encouraging foreign workers into all occupations. Labour should be at the forefront of  banning unnecessary agency work in favour of full time jobs & banning zero hours contracts while being at the forefront of demanding the national living wage.The  Labour Party has long since turned its back on the "bruvvers & sisters" it expects to vote for it at the next election.

[Confused52]

Fugs

That means that it is now the Labour Party that wants to maintain job insecurity for the working class whilst the Tories want to stop it.

The evidence was in the form of the argument that preceded that statement. Parties have to be judged by their actions and policies and the consequences of them. They all say that they are right but making our own judgements and choices is the essence of democracy.

Generations of Labour voters have relied on the expectation raised by Keir Hardie in a speech made on 27th Feb 1900 when he proposed this motion at the meeting at which the Labour Party was formed, a .. " distinct Labour group in Parliament should be formed, distinct from other parties, with its own policies and whips, dedicated to the promoting of legislation that helped the working man.

Since I demonstrated that their support for the customs union and through it the single market is damaging the outcome for the working man it is for you to show why that is not treachery since it contradicts the very essence of the purpose of the Labour Party.