observer Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 There was a two part history about Afghanistan on TV recently, by Rory Stewart; and without going into the detail; I must say, that if this information was available to any sane person, they would never have got us involved. So, presumably the info was available to Bush and Blair; who were either too arrogant and ignorant to heed the lessons; or deliberately placed our boys in harms way knowing it to be a futile adventure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 There was a two part history about Afghanistan on TV recently, by Rory Stewart; and without going into the detail; I must say, that if this information was available to any sane person, they would never have got us involved. So, presumably the info was available to Bush and Blair; who were either too arrogant and ignorant to heed the lessons; or deliberately placed our boys in harms way knowing it to be a futile adventure. I agree completely obs, I know this section is not the place to discuss this particular conflict although I suppose anything that has happened is history, every time I see the ticker tape on tv announcing yet another of our lads/lassies having lost their lives it tears me apart, another lad from the 3rd Battalion, The Yorkshire Regiment lost his life yesterday, I couldn't help thinking about his family who must be devastated, our 'BLOODY' government are just setting these lads up for the Taliban to use as target practice and amounts to nothing more than execution by our own government. Dizz, if you read this perhaps you could transfer it to the National/General Issues Section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 My blood boils every time i read about our soldiers being murdered (and it is murder). Bush and Blair (old maates that they are) should be hung up on high together in a public place so all the world can watch! Blair is a thick skinned arrogant bugger. He doesn't believe he has done anything wrong and he wants to return to politics - ALLAH FORBID IT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Actually Alg; it's the history I wanted to dwell on, as it's so informative about the Afghans and how they think. EG: They are (especially in the rural areas) extemely conservative Islamists; they rejected modernisation attempt, even when internally generated; first by their young King in the 1920s and later by the University based Communist elites in the 60s, which gave rise to the Mujaedeen war with the USSR. They simply prefer to live in the middle ages, and if this means girls don't get educated and women have to hide their faces - so be it; after all, it's their Country and thus their buisiness. So this idea, that "Western values" can be imposed upon them, is just as mistaken now, as it was when the British Empire tried it in the 19thC - and failed. Following the ejection of the Russians and a brief period of tribal civil war; the Taliban took over, and imposed strict sharia laws, which almost illiminated crime and corruption, including the opium trade. Their crime, in Western eyes, was to host Bin Laden and Al Quaeda after 9/11; which led to the US invasion. But as all invaders have learned, it's easy to get into Afghanistan, the problem is, getting out. All that keeps "Super Powers" there, is the loss of face of a retreat, so bodies are piled on top of bodies; even though the futility of it all is apparent. A Soviet veteran General, when asked what we should do, said - " go home as quickly as possible". :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 As you rightly say ,Obs , they were excellent documentaries on a country in its own timewarp that just wanted to be left alone but was bullied by superpowers of the day into brutal & effective retaliation. There has also been a two part series on Singapore that has been a real eyeopener on the way that the old days of the British Empire & The Raj were viewed & resented by the indiginous populations.It also highlights the arrogance of the British towards its local servants & invading Japs that left Britain with a bloody nose. Well worth a watch on i player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 The Singaporeans still hold a resentment of the British today, or at least they did when I was there some 30 years ago and they did not mind showing it. With any other nationality it was service with a smile and plenty of chat. However for me it was service with a sour countenance and as few words as were needed, which rather irated my host, who was Malaysian and who was on the point of raising the matter with management of one particular restaurant we visited until I talked him out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Right on Wavy; I watched it with interest: the surrender was the biggest disgrace to British Arms in history, with 30,000 Japanese capturing more than twice their number. Again, a disaster brought about by arrogance and ignorance; with such myths that the nips had bad eyesight, due to not eating carrots. Our military leaders at the time, thought the jungle was their enemy and couldn't understand how the Japs by-passed them down the Malay penninsula on bikes! It wasn't till later that we learned to master the jungle and fight the Japs on equal terms through Burma; albeit with "the forgotten" 14th Army. As it said in the prog; the sight of British "whites" deserting them, spurred them to desert the Empire after the war (alas, we still gave them British passports - but that's another story!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 You will find most people's of the World do not like being subjugated, The Empire was only ever popular over here, not in the Countries that were subjugated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 Well they were so p**d off with us, they've been flocking to the Mother Country ever since, and lighting bonfires in Queenie's honour yesterday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 Well how long we're we screwing them for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 Make yer mind up: you said they were teed off with us - next they're gagging to get here - slight contradiction or what?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 A legitimate question, how long did we screw them for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 A reciprocal arrangement; they gave us raw materials, we converted them into finished products as the "workshop of the world", and in turn modernised their countries - much better arrangement than your EU! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted June 5, 2012 Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 We mined their iron, we brought it back to the UK, we made trains out of it and then sold them back to them, sound about right Obs. We stole national resource, All profits from mining farming ect came to the UK, not the Country where it was produced. The wealth of the UK came from exploiting the Empire as you know well Obs. There was no reciprocal arrangement, that would denote choice, they had no choice.!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2012 If you travel the world (at least the old Empire), you may discover that most of their infrastructure was provided by the mother country; albeit, to better exploit them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 We mined their iron, we brought it back to the UK, we made trains out of it and then sold them back to them! I can't agree with the above part of your statement Lt. Obtaining raw material and converting it into a product is called 'Adding Value' which means that the producer has incurred a cost in the production process, so if the producer sells/trades the end product back to that country from where the raw materials where obtained from, then that country purchasing/trading that product must have the ability to pay/trade for said product, in the instance that you quoted, if they were totally occupied and oppressed, where would that country obtain the currency to purchase the trains from the manufacturer, also if Great Britain had not been in that country I'm fairly sure they would not have had railway lines to operate the trains on!. Don't forget that if we had not been occupied by the Romans for approximately 300 Years we would still have been in a comparable state to some of the present third world countries, wandering about the country hitting one and other over the head with wooden clubs, mind you in certain instances that might not be a bad idea!. :grin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Don't forget that if we had not been occupied by the Romans for approximately 300 Years we would still have been in a comparable state to some of the present third world countries, wandering about the country hitting one and other over the head with wooden clubs, mind you in certain instances that might not be a bad idea!. That is still happening to an extent in the UK Algy, me auld lovie - i's called mugging! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 There are extrordinary parallels between the operation of the Roman Empire and that of the British, perhaps due to our Patrician class being educated in the classics. But like the Roman Empire, very little of the general bounty found it's way back to the Plebs. However, on a lighter note Alg; your comment reminded me of that Monty Python sketch, where some ancient Brits are arguing - "what did the Romans ever do for us?"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 They gave Dizzy a pet pebble. That's what the Romans did! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Sorry Eagle, I'm in such a frivilous mood today I could make yu feel sick. But don't worry, the shredder is waiting for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 I get really pigged off with some people on here who criticise the British Empire.... the empire raised the living standards of countless millions around the world and without us, they would still be living in mud huts. Do you think the Italians still criticise their country for what the Romans did or do you think they prside the fact that they modernised half the world? Don't forget that there are religious leaders in Afghanistan who want to drag its followers and non-followers back to the 12th century rather than allow its people freedom...... and they are slowly taking over and colonising us in the West..... however we aren't allowed to criticise them are we??? The Empire happened..... get over it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Everyone knows the Empire happened, The rail network was put in Empire Countries to better exploit the natural resources of the countries, and to move around British troops to quell rebellion, it was not put in for the good of the locals. The Empire exploited all Counties it touched and brought the wealth of those Countries back to the UK. The British like or Empires before it was their to exploit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 There are extrordinary parallels between the operation of the Roman Empire and that of the British, perhaps due to our Patrician class being educated in the classics. But like the Roman Empire, very little of the general bounty found it's way back to the Plebs. However, on a lighter note Alg; your comment reminded me of that Monty Python sketch, where some ancient Brits are arguing - "what did the Romans ever do for us?"! Life of Brian!, obs. just couldn't resist it. :grin: Oh! and Lt some humorous words of advice and wisdom; Sod off and lighten up, who cares, it's over and done with! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Brilliant algy, one of the best films ever, It was Obs who brought up Empire and passports, perhaps they think we exploited their country and they now have a right to exploit theirs, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Brilliant algy, one of the best films ever, It was Obs who brought up Empire and passports, perhaps they think we exploited their country and they now have a right to exploit theirs, Yer' nor' a bad lad really! I think obs brings the worst out on yer', and the same arse road round!. :grin: I agree Lt, brilliant film. I have it on DVD and very often watch it. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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