UKRAINE ?

[Observer II]

Used to be part of the Soviet Union until it's breakup;  continued under a Communist Leader until he was ousted by a coup, when elections brought the present pro-West regime.  However,  the Country is split on an East-West Axis, with a majority east of the Dnieper being pro-Russian, whilst the West seeks membership of NATO and the EU.  Now from a Russian perspective, since the end of the Cold War and the fall of the USSR, they've seen NATO and the EU move closer to their borders, which they view as a threat to their National Security.  I'm minded to ask, how would we feel, if the same thing happened to us ?   And in a way, it has, the EU has literally taken control of part of the UK, with the NI protocol; and Boris has allowed it to happen.  So it's easy to understand the Russian position imo, and no doubt they'll settle the issue in a more pragmatic manner. Meantime, NATO and the EU need to keep their noses out of matters outside their jurisdiction.    

[Confused52]

The location of the border was determined by the USSR. The issue you ignore is why the Ukraine does not have the right of self-determination just because it is next to Russia? Why does Russia get the special status of being able to control the internal affairs of its neighbours in Europe. Russian also refuse to deport their citizens to face charges abroad. In essence Russia behaves as if it if has supremacy over the rest of the world and threatens when it doesn't get its own way. 

Russia claims that it wants a buffer but threatens to invade and make the buffer smaller or non-existent. 

 

[Observer II]

The neighbouring States were that "buffer", which extended to Berlin under the USSR.  Throughout history, direct conflict between major players were avoided by recognition of spheres of influence, incursions into which, results in war; which should be unthinkable in our Nuclear age.    

[Confused52]

The Warsaw pact countries were not a buffer for NATO. Just for the Soviet Union. They need to grow up.

[Observer II]

NATO was set up as a defensive organisation, it has since pursued an offensive strategy by advancing East, aside from wider actions in Bosnia and Afghanistan, so no surprise that the Russians feel threatened.  CIA Ops in Ukraine and now Kazakstan, to destabilise pro-Russian regimes are ongoing, so perhaps Putin is calling time on them.   

[Latchford Locks]

Well whether it's a Global Pandemic or Nuclear War or even Global Warming.

It seems that The Doomsday Clock must be getting pretty close to midnight at the moment. 😲

[Confused52]

15 hours ago, Observer II said:

...  CIA Ops in Ukraine and now Kazakstan, to destabilise pro-Russian regimes are ongoing, so perhaps Putin is calling time on them.   

The regime in Ukraine is not pro-Russian. The rebels in East Ukraine are doing the destabilising supported by Russia. They are also the criminals who brought down the Malaysian airliner. So your position appears to be that it is wrong to give support to the duly elected government of Ukraine because the Russians don't like it. Why do you support the Russians?

1n 1994 the Budapest Memorandum was signed by "The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" and it states in its first three articles:

"Confirm the following:

1. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

2. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

3. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind."

It is not the USA or UK who are in potential breach of their International obligations but Russia.

[Observer II]

Well, it appears that the West have fallen down on paragraph 3 by imposing economic sanctions on Russia.    The Malaysian Airliner was shot down over a known war zone, where such accidents were liable to occur.   The majority in the East, certainly the Donbass Region,  are pro-Russian and will no doubt welcome a Russian invasion, just as they did in the Crimea;   in a similar manner to the way those in the Western Ukraine welcomed the German Invasion in 1941.  One would have thought that the West had learnt it's lesson in Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria,  where we're now dealing with the results crossing the Channel.   😠

[Confused52]

1 hour ago, Observer II said:

Well, it appears that the West have fallen down on paragraph 3 by imposing economic sanctions on Russia.   

Pardon, the imposition of sanctions on Ukraine is what they agreed not to do. 

[Observer II]

Well it's looking like they will soon be employing the ultimate sanction on Ukraine, boots on the ground - that's real politik.  

[Observer II]

4 hours ago, Latchford Locks said:

Well whether it's a Global Pandemic or Nuclear War or even Global Warming.

It seems that The Doomsday Clock must be getting pretty close to midnight at the moment. 😲

Apparently - it's at 100 seconds at the moment - one idiotic move by Biden or Boris, and we can place our heads between our legs and kiss our r-ses goodbye.  😉