Are the old paying enough?

[Lt Kije]

In tough times are pensioners paying enough, they benefitted from artificially low taxes, free higher education.In many cases they had jobs for life, they get free bus passes, help with heating. They are also benefitting from Pfi hospitals, which are being paid for by the young. The young have to pay for higher education, their are no jobs for life.

It is the young that are paying for the people who have retired pensions, they are paying for something they themselves are not going to get. We as a society have mortgaged the young. They are going to have to save even more money for their pensions that the current old ever did. And if they have gone to university they are starting out in dept. Lack of jobs means many are not going to start earning till they are in their 20's. So they will end up having to save more, work longer and have to pay higher taxes than our current pensioners ever had to. Things are only going to get worse for the young as our population is ageing, we cannot keep piling our young with dept.

[Cleopatra]

So what do you suggest? Compulsory elimination after the age of retirement?

What about all the immigrants, legal and illegal that go to the uk and put a strain on the welfare state etc.,? What do you suggest regarding them?

And how about one parent famiies, meaning women who choose to have kids without the advantage of a permanent spouse/partner? Are they not also putting a strain on the state? Oh and lets not forget the disabled who claim a fortune in benefits, some from birth. Should they be eliminated too?

Pensioners have earned the right to an easy and comfortable retirement, having worked all their lives, some from the age of 15 years in heavy industry where the work was hard and hazardous. Why penalise them now when the going gets tough? They are hardly to blame for today's circumstances. Penalise the idiots who got you into the mess you are in, those who continue to be paid incredibly high salaries with humongous bonuses!

Sheesh! Why should I worry? I'm ok Jack.

[Lt Kije]

Sadly no suggestions Cleo, but it is the young that are paying for all the benefits that the retired are receiving, and they themselves are never going to receive them.they are going to have to work far longer for far less. The baby boomers benefitted from artificially low taxes had all the benefits from the property boom, the young have not got any of those and are being mortgaged up to the hilt before they even start, ultimately something has to give.

[Cleopatra]

Blinking heck! You were quick! were you reading as I was writing?

 

(edit) Something strange has happened here. I only just pressed the submit button and there was a reply already yet the posting times suggest a 13 minute time lapse! Weird!

[asperity]

Lt Kije I think you've hit on something here. How about people, as soon as they retire, having all their assets confiscated (the proceeds going to the state). The old folk could be put into secure "homes" where they would be guardedcared for by warderscare staff. They could be given a weekly allowance to pay for food, clothing etc. These selfish people could then live out the rest of their lives contemplating on how they should have given more thought to the welfare of their descendants.

 

Written with tongue firmly in cheek :roll:

[Lt Kije]

So Asp, you think the system is fair now, where the young are being mortgaged to the hilt to pay for the retirement for the old, the young are paying for something they are never going to get themselves, As I have said Asp, I have no solutions, your tongue in cheek solutions where pathetic in the least, take your blinkers off have alook at the situation they are in, with an ageing population the situation we find ourselves in cannot continue, no one government is to blame, all governments over the last 30 years are, they have seen this bomb coming and done nothing. We are living longer and have an ageing population, there will not be enough young to pay for the old. If they are working they are paying higher taxes than the retired ever had to and they are going to have to work longer and get less, do you find that fair.?

[observer]

For once I'm totally in agreement with Cleo (WOW)! Kije's totally fallen for the divide and conquer tactic of this Government, trying to set one generation against another. There's only one divide in this and many other Countries - the divide between rich and poor, and this Government are doing sod all to close it.

[Lt Kije]

I completely agree that the old for the most part deserve their retirement but it cannot be afforded,those people who are paying for the old now will not get it. The newly retired had the benefit of artificially low taxes for most of their working life. The young and working now don't have that they are paying for it.

[asperity]

Lt Kije you are making the mistake of painting everyone with the same brush. I've said this before, and obviously you are incapable of understanding the concept, we are all different. We cannot be put into boxes the way you would like. In my own situation, I left school at 15 as soon as I finished O levels and have worked ever since. I have paid income tax, national insurance, sales tax/VAT, every other tax the politicians have thought up. I've had mortgages with and without tax relief with interest rates up to 15% (briefly 30% )and have paid, and still am paying, into private pension plans. You are trying to tell me that when I'm too old to work any longer (and it will be sooner rather than later) I won't deserve to benefit from all the money that the state has TAKEN from me over the majority of my life? You really are a joke Lt Kije and I hope you have made good provision for when you are too old to work. Get real. :roll:

[Lt Kije]

I am glad you are sorted Asp, it isn't worth starting a pension at the moment, you have to pay an astronomical amount in. My hole point is, we cannot keep mortgaging the young to pay for the old, as we have an aging population it just does not add up. As we are living longer

[asperity]

And further, Lt Kije (I don't know how old you are) the older you get the more you come to realise that life isn't fair. There are no rules laid down as to how each life is going to pan out. For you to suggest that life was easier 30 years ago than it is now is plainly absurd. As for the role of government you would have to go back more than the last 30 years to point out the mistakes that have been made. My mother is 88 and still paying Income Tax, I would suggest that that is not only absurd, I would suggest it is obscene. Other countries in the world look after their ageing populations, they don't try to victimise them. You say you have no answers so why don't you put your grey matter to finding some rather than just throwing accusations around?

 

Can you explain your concept of artificially low taxes? I can't say I've ever experienced low taxes, artificial or otherwise. Don't forget Income Tax was brought in as a temporary measure to pay for the Napoleonic Wars.

[asperity]

I am glad you are sorted Asp, it isn't worth starting a pension at the moment, you have to pay an astronomical amount in. My hole point is, we cannot keep mortgaging the young to pay for the old, as we have an aging population it just does not add up. As we are living longer

 

 

Did I say I was sorted?? I'm paying into schemes that are not going to pay out what they promised when they were started. The real world again!! The idea of NI was the original Ponzi Scheme. It was only ever going to work as long as the number of people paying into it increased year on year. The Welfare State, beloved of the socialists, can never be realised in the real world. :wink:

[Lt Kije]

I am looking for solutions Asp, that's why I posted on here, We cannot carry on mortgaging the young, the old will out number them soon, so the system will fall apart. Have you any solutions, the current system will fail, it might not fail before you have your slice of the cake but it will fail. So what are your solutions?

[wolfie]

Lt is right, a state pension of £107 per week after working all your life is a disgrace. :roll:

[asperity]

From your previous post can I presume you aren't paying into a pension scheme? As for suggestions, do you agree that the pensions of people in the public sector need to be radically reduced and refinanced, because that is one of the largest drains on the public purse?

[Lt Kije]

It's how you get the £107.00 and who pays, there will not be enough people to pay it with the population ageing, and people living longer. What happens when the bomb goes off and we have more retired people than people of working age.??

[asperity]

To be honest, the country can afford to pay pensioners the state pension by cutting out on other budgets (the EUSSR would be a start, but foreign aid, government waste and foreign wars could also be thought about). Cutting immigration and supporting proper training for school leavers would help. There are so many problems in this country that have been caused by trying to trying to help the "underdog". Welfare has it's place but not when it replaces work as the main income. Minimum wage discourages employment. I think we need a radical change in the way the country is run and it is going to involve a lot of pain. Sorry. :blink:

[Lt Kije]

Nice one Asp, some ideas, Found this.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/9198756/IMF-warns-of-750bn-pensions-time-bomb.html

 

The system as it is now will fail.

[observer]

The Governement are already increasing the age of retirement, on the grounds that most folk are living longer and thus spend more time in retirement - perhaps they should encourage folk to smoke, drink and get fat, thus reduceing life expectancy and the cost of retirement?! Most retirees have paid NI and all the other taxes going, have also paid into private pension schemes, only to see their prudent savings be eaten away by artificially low interest rates and so called quantative easing. But to repeat, if your looking for scapegoats Kije, look for those really to blame for the mess - those who continue to make a fortune out of Bank bonuses and super high salaries, while dodging the tax on it. Also, the very democratic political system that means political Parties look to their short term electoral success, rather than addressing the long term fundementals. Hansard is littered with debates about the "pensions timebomb" for the last two decades, yet not one Government has attempted to address it. Brown and Major were building Hospitals etc with PFI schemes, getting short term electoral kudos at the expense of future generations. The causes and solutions to our present plight are much more fundemental and deep seated than your original question suggests.

[Lt Kije]

Obs I am not looking for people to blame, as you say we have very low interest rates, it is not worth paying into a private pension you would be lucky to get anything out of it. People in work were made the same promises by the government you pay your NI and their will be a pension for you, when I started work it was retirement at 65. I presume that's when you went, looks like my promise is going to be broken, and I am going to get less than you get and work longer, The pension bomb has been around for years no political party wanted to touch it until it was to late, and the burden is going to fall on the under 45s who are going to have to take a massive hit. Don't forget Obs they went to work with the same NI promise as you did retire at 65, and the retired had the aded bonus of having a private pension scheme that worked and payed out. I have a daughter that is hoping to become a nurse A level results pending, she has not started in the tax system yet but when she does she will be paying for all the Pfi schemes that have been mortgaged to her plus whatever the government need for her generation. And on top of that she is going to pay for the retired, and their will be even more retired around for her to pay for.

[algy]

Obs I am not looking for people to blame, as you say we have very low interest rates, it is not worth paying into a private pension you would be lucky to get anything out of it. People in work were made the same promises by the government you pay your NI and their will be a pension for you, when I started work it was retirement at 65. I presume that's when you went, looks like my promise is going to be broken, and I am going to get less than you get and work longer, The pension bomb has been around for years no political party wanted to touch it until it was to late, and the burden is going to fall on the under 45s who are going to have to take a massive hit. Don't forget Obs they went to work with the same NI promise as you did retire at 65, and the retired had the aded bonus of having a private pension scheme that worked and payed out. I have a daughter that is hoping to become a nurse A level results pending, she has not started in the tax system yet but when she does she will be paying for all the Pfi schemes that have been mortgaged to her plus whatever the government need for her generation. And on top of that she is going to pay for the retired, and their will be even more retired around for her to pay for.

[Lt Kije]

[algy]

For once Lt you left me speachless!

[Lt Kije]

So algy, you think the current system is sustainable, or is it you just don't care as long as you get out the slice you think you are entitled too, and be damned for those who follow.?

[algy]

So algy, you think the current system is sustainable, or is it you just don't care as long as you get out the slice you think you are entitled too, and be damned for those who follow.?

Lt, I was born at the start of WWII of which thank goodness I don't remember much about but I do remember the hardships my parents especially my father who was lowly paid, went through to put food in my mouth and cheap warm clothes on my back, I experienced going to a school built about a hundred years old where I sat at a desk of similar age and contrary to popular belief there were still children in Latchford wearing their fathers trousers with the legs cut short and still kids walking around with no shoes to their feet (not many I grant you but I new of two near to where I lived) I struggled with my sparse education but on leaving school started work in a job not of my choosing but one that I was told to go to, a low paid hard, labour job where my toilet was to pee in a mound of straw that was used by the others employed there and which when it became too stenching, I as the junior employee had to remove and replace with fresh straw, yes jobs were to be had but generally for the working class they were poorly paid and required you to work long hours to make a living wage. I worked in all types of heavy engineering work eventually settling in the heavy chemicals industry where I spent twenty five years working with chlorine manufacture, frequently being gassed, once requiring hospitalisation, resulting in my having problems with my lungs, again I worked long hours entailing late evening and weekend working rarely seeing my two young children awake, my wife did not work as in those days most grandparents did not have cars to enable them to come and look after the children, most families did not own two or more cars to enable a wife to trundle the kids across town to be cared for by members of their family. The company I worked for had a contributory pension scheme of which I had to contribute a weekly sum based on my gross earnings, I am by no means unique in my age group as most people my age have experienced the same and I for one will not give up my well earned present standard of living without a fight!. Call me stupid for not understanding where you are coming from Lt but WHO THE BLOODY HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, THE CAPED CRUSADER OR ADOLPH HITLER!. You repeatedly say "you are looking for an answer" when you find your answer that suits you what the Hell are you going to do with it, I suggest you crawl back under your bloody stone and stuff it where the sun don't shine. :angry: