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Seems the rats in parliament are finally clutching at the idea of proportional representation - I wonder why? Well., the fact that they are talking about a Single Tranferable Vote system is a good indicator of their motivation: this would mean for example that, all those Labour voters who have switched to the BNP or UKIP, may vote Labour as their second preference - then again, they may not wish to use their second preference vote at all! :?

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As this shower of stinking liars never gave us a referendum on Kijes Euro ripoff but have promised us one on this subject, someone should start a campaign to use this referendum as a protest referendum over Europe. So if the question has yes or know ansers, everyone should vote no because that is what they would have done over the Lisbon treaty (apart from kije of course) so the result would be 51 million say no and one says yes (and a few hundred new labour Euro MEPs) :lol:

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They've come up with STV precisely because it favours main stream parties, it's all part of their political manipulations to stay in power. However, they're relying on folk to use a second preference vote - and they may be right in thinking folk are too thick not to use it. :wink:

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Probably true but the stitch up of the mainstream parties is what's killing democracy .Because the three main parties more or less share the same policies it means there isn't a proper choice on the table.The dividing lines are either tiny or an argument over 'tone' more than substance. This means pople who have concerns about Britain's role in Europe (UKIP), Immigration and Asylum (UKIP,BNP) and the environment (Greens), or even genuine socialism have no voice and will still have no voice under the new system.That's what is killing people's motivation to vote...it used to be lazy people who didn't vote by saying "they're all the same"....now it's informed people making a choice not to vote.Genuine PR is the only way to breathe fresh life into UK politics....

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Agreed: but it's not all about PR; a combination of PR (which covers the thematics of politics) and first past the post (which covers the geographical representational aspect) can be achieved through simple constitutional change: IE MPs elected on FPTP forming the legislature; and 100 Senators (Lords) elected on % vote, forming the executive - sorted. :wink:

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Probably true but the stitch up of the mainstream parties is what's killing democracy .Because the three main parties more or less share the same policies it means there isn't a proper choice on the table.The dividing lines are either tiny or an argument over 'tone' more than substance. This means pople who have concerns about Britain's role in Europe (UKIP), Immigration and Asylum (UKIP,BNP) and the environment (Greens), or even genuine socialism have no voice and will still have no voice under the new system.That's what is killing people's motivation to vote...it used to be lazy people who didn't vote by saying "they're all the same"....now it's informed people making a choice not to vote.Genuine PR is the only way to breathe fresh life into UK politics....

 

You make some very interesting points, which begs the question that since all the parties that you mention actually have seats in the European Parliament, what difference are they really making, and indeed much as they criticise the system they are only too willing to draw the massive & increasing salaries and expenses. There are some who advocate that rather than having these small parties, there should be far more "Independents" :wink:

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PAUL; there are two representational requirements to be reconciled - one is thematic or policy led, whilst the other is geographical. In the case of the latter, it would be perhaps preferable to have "independents" representing the interests of a constituency (Town), but that rests with the electorate ultimately. With regard to the former, a 100 seat executive, could easily be assembled by direct PR on a party list system. :?

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I'm all for more independents.Party politics doesn't really enhance goverment, particularly local government.80% of people vote for one party to keep another party out, that's a perversion of democracy.I've yet to see a Lib Democrat newsletter that doesn't urge you to vote for them because they are the only party who can beat someone else. Which begs the question what exactly are you voting 'for'?

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Kyje: isn't that precisely why NuLab have finally come round to considering PR, cos at the end of the day, they are more certain of "second votes" - afraid this STV system would consign us to the same bunch of electoral, all things to all men, centre hugging careerists we've now become accustomed to - so no vision, no grand plan, no conviction, no fundemental change - just the same old grey politics. :roll:

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Obs you are correct, I final fling of the dice to hold on to power, If we would have had the system earlier it might have stopped them getting in the first place, One benefit of the system would be that any MP who is elected would need 50% of the vote from his constituency unlike now, It's not perfect but it is fairer than are present system, and unlike PR it would not lead to weak government like in Italy.

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Obs you are correct, I final fling of the dice to hold on to power, If we would have had the system earlier it might have stopped them getting in the first place, One benefit of the system would be that any MP who is elected would need 50% of the vote from his constituency unlike now, It's not perfect but it is fairer than are present system, and unlike PR it would not lead to weak government like in Italy.

 

Not an MP (but that's another story :D ), when I stood in the locals in 2008, I did actually get 50% of the vote......just. I got 503 and the others totalled 502. Mind you I've got the smallest vote in the Town Hall...and the smallest majority...but then it is the smalled Ward. :wink::D

 

Regarding MPs, locally Mrs Jones got 53% of the vote in 2005, whilst Mrs Southworth got 41%...the MP for Knowsley got 77% of the vote...bit greedy if you ask me. :D:D:D

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But you also need to factor in "non-voters"; we can have candidates an Governments elected on a lot less than 50% of the eligible electorate - so no perfect system I.m afraid. The two main Parties ignore the aspirations of their core voters in any event, in the fight over marginal seats - so we finish up with pretty much the same thing but with a different title. :roll:

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