Gaza - 2 sides to every story

[asperity]

Israel has been settled on stolen Palestinian land...couldn't be simpler. The Israelis continue daily to steal Palestinian land and property. Don't believe me...ask the UN.

 

Now I know you aren't serious. Ask the UN? The most corrupt international organisation that has ever existed.

[asperity]

Merely an objective observation Asp; on the irrational behaviour of mankind, which sparks these conflicts off in the first place - all in the name of religious dogma.

 

It may be religious dogma on behalf of the Islamist faction, but I believe the Israelis are more rational than to base their actions on belief in the sky fairy

[observer]

It's clear your biased in this matter Asp: the right wing Zionists are the very folk who are squatting on land in the West Bank, that they believe has been promised to them by God. These are the nut cases that had to be forcably removed by the Israeli police and army. You know the ones; hats on and wrinklets, head bobbing at the wailing wall - now please don't try a tell me that those folk are rational - and since the last Israeli elections they form a major influence on their Government. So we've got those nutters on one side. and the equally fanatical candidates for paradise on the other = a recipe for irrational intolerance and conflict.

[asperity]

It's clear your biased in this matter Asp: the right wing Zionists are the very folk who are squatting on land in the West Bank, that they believe has been promised to them by God. These are the nut cases that had to be forcably removed by the Israeli police and army.

 

I am far from being biased, I just believe in fair play and the lies that are being broadcast by the media (especially the biased BBC as usual) and on this forum offend my sense of fair play. I know that you like to cast everyone who disagrees with you as "right wing" but this is plain nonsense in the case of the people who, you quite rightly say, are squatting on land that doesn't belong to them and who believe they have been granted the right to do so by the sky fairy. The very fact that the Israeli police and army have been tasked to remove them should tell you that the Israeli government isn't in favour of such behaviour. But just because some people misbehave in this way doesn't give you, or anybody else, the right to demand that all their fellow countrymen be stripped of the possessions and land (which has been, as I keep trying to point out, purchased legitimately) and cast out to who knows where. Or maybe you have a suggestion as to where 5 million displaced Israelis should be sent. The UK has some nice open borders and excellent free healthcare and welfare. Meanwhile the "Palestinians" could have free rein to return the country the Israelis have built from nothing over the last century or so to the backward waste that characterises much of the rest of the Middle East. Over to you Solomon

[Peter T]

Never understood why they were allowed to build there in the first place. Trouble waiting to happen.

[safeway56]

Israel was built in Palestine from nothing ?...One of the many Zionist lies. You really should seek your information from sites other than Zionist propaganda web sites. The Euro Zionist terrorists drove Palestinians from their home and lands by bombing and terror...Whole villages were ethnically cleansed and wiped from the face of the earth. Unless of course there were particularly fine houses which the Euro terrorists kept for themselves. Some of the true owners of such houses are still alive and living in Gaza squalour.

[Legion]

I watched a documentary, wish I could remember the name but it was a terrifying glimpse at what the Israeli Jews were doing to the Palestinians.

 

I know and knew very little about the subject.And going from memory it boiled down to the land being promised to the Israelis in some ancient scriptures and by gods name they would have the right to destroy any man/woman and child that stood in the way of them getting this divine land.

 

After the war through agreements with the US etc, the Israelis were given this area as a settlement. and shared life happily with the Arabs at the time. but Elite Jew regime gained influence in the US by securing almost all top posts in government, banking, arms, media and trade. using this influence which they still hold to this day. Using tactics such as celebrity-ism and sports to divert our attention from real world information.

 

with this they effectively subdued the whole world into their way of thinking and support for the Israeli state as all media, films, books, newspapers would show best possible light on Jewish point of view and hence Israeli.

 

The demand to fully own the "Promised Land" as written by god himself gave Justification to the eradication of the non jew/isreali areas by any means possible, but the media control also justifies this to the outside world as anti terrorism/aggression measures against the Palestinians.

 

Now, I don't know if this is true or not, I too am a victim of Media propaganda as we all are. the question is.. is this documentary telling the truth or do we believe the standard media.. The only thing that makes me think is that it would seem that the media (newspapers/film/entertainment) is pretty much owned by this minority group. The media do headline the latest exploits of (ironically named) Katie (Jordan) Price over The Gaza strip. World cup/Olympics/Golf, Tennis all scheduled throughout the years not to mention big brother/x-factor/BGT.. Distracting the masses from real world issues.

 

not sold on either idea yet.

 

but can someone tell me why have the Jews been persecuted throughout the centuries by so many different races/civilisations...

when they would appear such lovely peace loving people?

[asperity]

Israel was built in Palestine from nothing ?...One of the many Zionist lies. You really should seek your information from sites other than Zionist propaganda web sites. The Euro Zionist terrorists drove Palestinians from their home and lands by bombing and terror...Whole villages were ethnically cleansed and wiped from the face of the earth. Unless of course there were particularly fine houses which the Euro terrorists kept for themselves. Some of the true owners of such houses are still alive and living in Gaza squalour.

 

You really should seek YOUR information from sites other than anti-Israeli pro-Hamas propoganda web sites and the BBC

[observer]

Asp: I'm opposed to any ideology based on "religious" foundations - be it Zionism or Islamic fundementalism - it insults what should be, a 21st C capacity for humanity for rational reasoning. Yes, the then Israeli Gov, led by more rational leaders, did order some evictions of Zionist settlers on the West Bank; alas not all and indeed, planning permissions and building continues; under a Coalition that depends on a Zionist extremist vote - hence the recent hard line Israeli posture. H: Under Roman rule, the Jews were one of Rome's most obstinate and fanatical opponents, culminating in their final suicidal stand at Masada. They then moved throughout N/Africa and Europe, retaining their religious identity and culture, which naturally set them apart from the indigenous Muslims and Christians, as outcasts in these soceities they tended to resort to money lending as a basis for survival; so though despised, they were also deemed necessary to many a King short of cash - however, they were always resented and used as scape goats, being burned at the stake as heritics in the M/Ages and finally almost exterminated in the holocaust.

[safeway56]

I glean information from the UN(of which Israel is in breach of dozens of resolutions) Amnesty International, The Red Cross, The BBC and other hornets nests of terrorist propaganda as no doubt you would call them. I suggest you Google The King David Hotel and the USS Liberty for the true nature of these monsters.

 

... http://www.jerusalemites.org/crimes/massacres/6.htm

 

.... http://www.gtr5.com/

 

There you go...King David Hotel murders at the top, second is the attack on the USS Liberty.

[observer]

Perhaps the Stern Gang would be described as freedom fighters - one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist!

[Sue Durnim]

All that Israel wants to do is live in peace.

 

Isreal will not attack anyone, if they don?t attack Israel,

 

Attack Isreal, they will hit you back harder.

 

That?s the impression I get!

[asperity]

You have hit the nail on the head SD

 

Safeway the UN is, indeed, a hornets nest of terrorists and liars and I don't know why the USA still puts up with it

[Peter T]

This thread is quite amusing but for the continual loss of life.

there is never the hand wringing over other countries that get destroyed by 'mad' dictators.

Sue hit the nail on the head IMO.

Stop attacking and there won't be a response.

 

Does it matter who should be there? Should the native indians kick out the americans? Should the aborigines kick out the settlers and their descendants?

 

We are where we are. Live with it and move on. (I won't hold my breath).

[observer]

Obviously your not aquainted with the old testement Peter - "an eye for an eye" - violence begets violence - so it will continue as niether side appear to wish to reconcile their differences.

[asperity]

It looks like the time has come to decide whether you want to be anti Israel or anti Muslim

 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/iran-threat-on-gaza-blockade/story-e6frg6so-1225876646390

[observer]

... or just anti- religious fanatics?!

[Legion]

All that Israel wants to do is live in peace.

 

Isreal will not attack anyone, if they don?t attack Israel,

 

Attack Isreal, they will hit you back harder.

 

That?s the impression I get!

 

but they started bulldozing the palastians homes in the 70s claiming it was their land..

 

they recently attacked a certain greek flotilla did they not. which was an aid convoy///so where was their agression.

 

I seem to remeber their snipers shooting dead a brittish reporter as he ran to aid a child that they shot.

 

and with the aid of google

 

 

they have shot two americans this week

 

a British UN aid driver last year

 

1967 pre emptive attack on egypt

 

 

and then theres this

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1525862/israeli_kills/

 

(not for the weak disposition)

[Eagle]

I would hazard a guess that you are a definite Anti-Israel.

[observer]

"o the gift te gi us, to see ourselves as others see us" Rabbi Burns!

[Goonerman]

Palestine was a sparsely populated desert and Jerusalem practically a shell with very few poor Arabs living in it, neglected by the Turks after Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent had done splendid work upgrading the Old City in the 16th century.

 

It was repopulated by mostly Russian Jews in the late 19th century who worked their guts out and sacrificed their lives in the harsh conditions sorting out the desert israel had become due to 2000 years war in which scorched earth policies had wrecked the country. Transjordanians then moved in as the jobs became available.

 

The seeds of the conflict were sown by ourselves, the British, who in the Mandate originally were going to give the whole of the West of the Jordan to the Jews with they and the Arabs living as equals, while Transjordania was supposed to become the Arab land with Jews as equals, the Kingdom of Jordan, but Britain messed up by making concessions to more extreme Arabs who got the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and more, then withdrew without sorting the mess they had created. Hence the conflict. The point is that in the 1910s and 1920s the Jewish, Arab leaders and the British were in agreement, before the stupid changes the British made to appease more extreme Arabs who sided with Hitler such as the Mufti of Jerusalem, for example, even to the point of stupidly dividing Jerusalem between Israel and Jordan, a lunatic move on our part which is at the absolute heart of the conflict, and even more so than the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, but Britain's rather cynical dividing of Jerusalem.

 

The founders of the Jewish settlements in pre-1948 Palestine were primarily Jewish socialists and secularists (Theodore Herzl was thoroughly secular, and he was the founder of Zionism- a SOCIALIST project!). Most of the religious ones support this, and indeed the kibbutzim reflect Socialism, a democratic version of the collective farms.

 

The Orthodox and especially Ultra-Orthodox are actually ANTI-Zionist in spite of them having settlements in Palestinian territory, considering Israel to be illegitimate precisely because it is secular in the main, and not under the rule of the Ultra-Orthodox Rabbinic courts, and not under the rule of the Messiah as well. That's why many of them even buy into the Holohoax Hoax, and attended, disgracefully, and bizarrely, the conference on the 'Holohoax' organised by the Iranian President.

 

Of course there is some religious fanaticism on the Orthodox Jewish side. But of course you know who has to twist it into pro-Atheist propaganda. (And being so desperate as to misuse 'an eye for an eye' which is to do with crime and punishment, but context of course is of no importance, is it? )

 

Explain to me this, Obbs:

 

How do you explain to me, as a Socialist yourself, how the Communist Soviets backed Syria, other Arab nations, and Islamic fanatical terrorists (even though they persecuted Islam at home!) against a Socialist Secular Jewish State?

 

Now there's Atheist irrationality stirring things up in Israel.

 

They can't blame the sky fairy on that one. That's no way to talk about butterflies!

 

Either there is a two-state solution or Israel be governed on Belgian lines. Jerusalem could be governed on Belgian lines between the Jews and Arabs involving power-sharing as in Northern Ireland, with power-sharing in the council of Jerusalem on the D'Hondt Principle.

[observer]

Hi Gman, think you'll find that Uncle Joe persecuted anyone who disagreed with Uncle Joe - be they Jews, Islamist - or even, and especially Socialists! Millions of Russian- ex-POWs were sent to die in Siberian labour camps as suspect collaborators - so pls don't search for any logic in Stalinist politics. Any support for M/East Arabs by the Soviets, would arise from US support of Israel - it was called cold war politics. As for your suggested Belgian model solution; a rather unfortunate choice, given the latest political schism in Belgium!

[Goonerman]

At least Belgium might go through a velvet divorce like the Czech Republic and Slovakia, and not go through the Israel/Palestine mess. It can't be as serious though as the rioting which led to Leopold III's abdication in 1951 as a result of his failings during the Second World War. I hope.

 

See this article:

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/04/belgian_politics

 

Stalin, well, of course, that's Stalin being Stalin.

[observer]

It's rather ironic, that at a time when mankind is endevouring to create ever bigger political Empires like the EU, we have this genetic predisposition for Balkanisation throughout the world.

[Goonerman]

Contradictory trends as ever, Obbs, and sometimes they help each other, such as Henry V taking advantage of the rivalry between the Burgundians and the Armagnacs in France, allying with the Duke of Burgundy who was taking advantage of the King of France's insanity and a lack of centre of power to promote Burgundy, enabling Henry V in his attempts to be both King of England and France.