A job's worth...

[Davy51]

It seems that Uber taxis have been told by the courts that they must start paying their workforce more like employees than on a casual basis. This could affect all firms who are baulking at paying proper employment benefits & hopefully it will signal the end of zero hours contracts.

[observer]

Not sure how this works Dave; but if these drivers receive payment (directly) from the customer, I assume we can conclude they are self employed. However, if payment is routed via Uber; one could assume they are employees and thus entitled to relevant protections. (?)

[Dizzy]

I'd imagine companies like Uber will find a way around it though even if they just have to close down and restart with different approach to their work force/business undertakings.

All they need to do is use self employed people and like Obs just said being self employed means no protections such as sick pay or holiday pay entitlement from the likes of Uber.
 
People (who for this example we shall call Mr G') who work as a contractor for a company 'x' but Mr G has to go through an agency to work for 'company x' and Mr D also has to have their own limited company to work for them or via the agencies.

Company 'x' then pays the agency for hours worked by Mr G, agency then pays Mr G's limited company (after taking their cut), and Mr G's ltd company then in turn pays himself  by way of a monthly wage and/or dividend.  But being a contractor Mr G is NOT entitled to sick pay, holiday pay or any other relevant protections from his place of work or agent such as that usually paid to those who are directly employed by a company as staff,

[Dizzy]

Having just re-read that after posting I'm not sure I made much sense.  Oh well not to worry.....would any of you give me a job, naah I though not         

[asperity]

It was going great Dizzy, then you introduced Mr D who thereafter never got another mention. Confused.com :lol:

 

However you can guarantee that if the driver gets his sick pay, holiday pay or whatever it won't be Uber paying, it will be the customer. Win win for the lawyers and the unions yet again.

[Davy51]

Funnily enough setting up a limited company seems to be the way forward for some agency workers these days. It must benefit the individual. I used to work with some drivers who since redundancy a few years ago are now working for a courier company as individual limited companies.

[observer]

The whole thrust and motivation behinds this, is customer demand for ever cheaper goods and services; which leads to poverty wages and even slavery throughout the world. Seems some of our highly respected high street brands are now sourcing from Turkey, where cloths are being made in sweat shops by Syrian migrants.

[asperity]

It may not suit your extremely parochial view of the world Obs, but globally poverty is on a steep decline. Of course the customer wants things to cost less, this is what drives economic progress. You do understand what competition is don't you? If not you'd probably be at home in North Korea (where you would certainly find out what "poverty" really means).

[observer]

"Steep decline"?  Over a million economic migrants don't seem to think so !     To sell "cheap", requires either a reduction in profit or the exploitation of the workforce, hence the example of Uber and a host of modern style business.  If they thought it would be economical, they'd bring back slavery (in fact that's on the rise); but they've probably worked out that you may have to feed slaves.

[Davy51]

It is surprising how many jobs seem to be not covered by the minimum wage/living wage regulations & there seem to be various loopholes to avoid paying. Perhaps that is why there is a concerted effort in this country to employ migrants.Perhaps if these discrepancies were dealt with we would see dole figures drop even further & eliminate the opportunities for unscrupulous employers to encourage the importation of foreign labour to be exploited.

[asperity]

"Steep decline"?  Over a million economic migrants don't seem to think so !     To sell "cheap", requires either a reduction in profit or the exploitation of the workforce, hence the example of Uber and a host of modern style business.  If they thought it would be economical, they'd bring back slavery (in fact that's on the rise); but they've probably worked out that you may have to feed slaves.

Get some facts:

 

http://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/poverty/overview

 

Just because people are wanting to move to richer countries doesn't have to mean they are living in extreme poverty. After all they have managed to find the money to pay the people trafficers!

 

A big step forward would be the collapse of the EU and it's tarriff wall which prevents the poorer countries of the world building up their trade with the much vaunted "largest trading bloc in the world".

[Bill]

Before this one goes of at a tangent it's worth noting that the taxi business is unlike most other business models.

Bizarrely, the drivers actually pay the company they work for rather than the other way round.

Effectively the drivers are self employed and pay the dispatch company to accept the calls for them.

So while a driver may say that he works for ABC Taxis and has a sign with that name on his car, he's not actually working for the company.

I don't know of any taxi company that gives holiday pay to "their" divers.

 

Bill

[observer]

Asp: poverty is a relative concept and driven by perception; if the grass looks greener on the other side of the hill, folk will move. The reality is the disparity in wealth between folk in each country and between countries has increased markedly; and is the inevitable consequence of the gravitation of capital in a capitalist system, where morality has no place. I agree however, with your comment on the EU, which far from promoting "free trade", increases exploitation on third world countries, this is made even worse by high street brands seeking ever cheaper sources for products. Yes Bill, I think your right, that's how I imagined the situation to be.

[Davy51]

I think in taxi terms Bill that so called bona fide taxi drivers have an axe to grind with uber for undercutting fares & generally not playing cricket .

[asperity]

So Obs, you think that poorer countries can be made richer by allowing them to trade on a fairer basis with richer countries, while at the same time you are against those self same richer countries outsourcing their manufacturing to the poorer countries and thus making them less poor? I think you need to sort your reasoning out here.

[observer]

Not quite how it works Asp: the multi-nationals move their manufacturing to sources of cheap labour in order to increase their profits, not for some altruistic motive to improve standards of living in those countries. Most third world countries have differing economic bases, reliant on local sources of minerals or agricultural products; which could sustain them, if they were traded fairly. It would also help if they didn't suffer from corrupt governance, where aid and income wasn't monopolised by their own elites.

[Bill]

Davy

 

I don't think Uber are necessarily undercutting prices, they charge whatever the market is prepared to pay, unlike normal drivers who tend to have their charges set by the local authorities. So if it's a busy period, you'll often pay significantly more for a cab compared to quiet times, which if you think about it sort of makes sense.

 

There's nobody being exploited and in a way a lot of what Uber does actually makes sense. The arguments come from the fact that this is a large foreign company that has been allowed to operate here in the UK but not be governed by the same set of rules that the UK companies have to abide by. It's big money and my guess is that some of this has changed hands to allow this ridiculous situation to occur.

 

Bill

[asperity]

So Obs do you think that first world companies should be banned from employing labour in third world countries, regardless of the adverse effects this would have on the living standards of the inhabitants of said countries? Don't you imagine that such action would further increase economic migration? You really do have a very blinkered, black and white, view of the world outside your little bubble don't you?

[observer]

Many "third world" Nations are developing their own manufacturing base, such as China, S/Korea and India. Others continue to rely on their traditional exports. The reason we have economic migration is the advent of global communications technologies, which allow folk to see over the other side of the hill. The problem is, it wouldn't be a problem if the first world nations kept their doors closed.

[Davy51]

Before this one goes of at a tangent it's worth noting that the taxi business is unlike most other business models.

Bizarrely, the drivers actually pay the company they work for rather than the other way round.

Effectively the drivers are self employed and pay the dispatch company to accept the calls for them.

So while a driver may say that he works for ABC Taxis and has a sign with that name on his car, he's not actually working for the company.

I don't know of any taxi company that gives holiday pay to "their" divers.

 

Bill

 

 

 

Davy nods in agreement.