Gang Culture?

[observer]

Is their a solution, to kids finding a home in a gang, being subjected to peer pressures that end up with them using knives, swords and guns to gain respect?

[Peter T]

Yes. It's called discipline,respect and let the punishment fit the crime.

 

Or quite simply, the "fear of consequences".

[Chrissy]

There are no short, trite answers to an incredibly complex issue. Showing respect for childhood, supporting all parents, making schooling responsive to the needs of pupils, more youth service/leisure provision, more police on the streets - the list goes on. A bit of joined up thinking really!

[observer]

CH4 has been running a series of progs on the subject of increasing gang violence, and the views of the kids themselves gave some insight into causations, of which there are many and indeed a complex assortment - but to identify some:- 1) Broken homes, a lack of a traditional (married)Mother - Father relationship, causing some kids to seek out and join an alternative "family" in gang membership. 2) Lack of parental supervision, due to work commitments, leaving kids below 10 to roam the streets and be influenced by older gang members. 3) Peer group pressures to commit crimes in order to increase their self esteem and respect. 4) Total lack of awareness or interest in the consequences of their actions to others, to the point of becoming sociopaths. 4) The idea, fostered by TV (eg: X-Factor etc) that you can (by some miracle) become anything you WANT to be, and if this can't be done legally, it's done illegally. 5) An acceptance in all the films and computer games they access, that violence is the norm. 5) A lack of interest or understanding of the relevence of education, or concept of morality, and a total commitment to the here and now. 6) A belief that it's better to be hated than loved, as hate = fear == respect. 6) Lack of tangible links between education and employment. None of these can be addressed by a single agency IE the Police and justice system; but require a joined up and properly funded strategy that can break the cycle of a poverty of aspiration and begin to mend broken Britain.

[Chrissy]

I was with the all the way until you went Cameron-esque at the end!

[observer]

Perhaps an unfortunate choice of words I admit; but relevent none the less!

[observer]

Interesting watching the Helen Newlove prog; not sure she got the answers she wanted though, which seems to have led her to the conclusion that the situation is insolvable. Whilst I may despair of the current political spivs ever sorting things out, there are ways to cure the problem, but they would be considered extreme/draconian by the current political establishment - and would start with the ammending of the Human Rights Act; some tax/benefit modifications to reinforce marriage and good parenting; some fiscal disincentives to discourage single parents and absent fathers etc; and try to re-estabish family and community cohesion - clearly a long haul in any event. As for this knee jerk obsession with knives/guns; it's warped/damaged minds that kill, the weapon is incidental; so we need to look at causations. As for punitive action, understandably HN was arguing that "life should mean life", which runs contrary to the liberal cult of our political and judicial class, who instead of building more prisons with harsher regimes, are letting them out early to ease overcrowding! Whilst I don't support the idea of putting these morons "in the Army"; it being an insult to those voluteers currently serving; however there could be a solution in the form of "penal battalions"; who would provide labour for the military, not be trained in the use of arms, but used for things like mine clearance etc - obviously they would be subject to military dicipline.

[Bazj]

........... used for things like mine clearance etc - obviously they would be subject to military dicipline.

 

"Right you 'orrible little man. I want to see you running across that mine field like your life depended on it!!"

[Peter T]

The word is that she is not popular in the area since she moved out and started slagging the place and people.

 

I sympathise with her loss, but was she doing anything about the problem before her husband was killed?

As I understand, things are improving with the use of CPSO's and long may it continue.

If punishment meant what it said on the tin, a large percentage wouldn't want to go back to prison. So take away their games and TV's etc. Make life difficult.

Then sort out the "hard cases".

[observer]

Baz; we could get them trained as "Irish" Engineers: cover your ears with both hands, then proceed to stamp your foot infront of you!

[Mary]

Our children are what we have created. They are joining gangs because of many reason but most say its because they feel a sense of belonging. Very sad. So they are killing each other and ruining their lives. We need to wake up and become more responsible adults!

[observer]

Sadly, this is now a multi-generational thing, with feckless parents spawning feckless kids - ever watched "Shameless"? Even decent parents don't know and have no control over what their kids get up to - "with their mates". It is a cultural malaise, brought about by decades of liberal erosion of standards of behaviour and life-style - pandering to the "I want - therefore I must have" cult, with materialism replacing real family relationships and a media soaked in the glamourisation of violence and X-Factor achievement. Any intervention to break this cycle, would need to be rather draconian and thus won't be accepted in our "liberal" democracy - thus things will continue to deteriorate, until total anarchy prevails.

[tonymaillman]

What's up with Shameless ??? best thing on the box !

[observer]

I agree, it used to be quite funny, but it's a bit like watching the Jeremy Kyle Show; yer can't help but laugh, but it's an embarrasment to anyone with aspirations to civilization and enlightenment.

[observer]

Can't quite follow the latest obsession with the "knife culture" - surely it's the warped minds of people that kill, the weapons is merely incidental, be it a knife, gun, baseball bat, screwdriver or fist?

[Peter T]

It's to be expected when they are brought up (without supervision) on a large diet of video games (etc) and violent films.

If they are not aware of personal pain, they don't know what the problem is.

[observer]

The psycology of this arms race appears similar to international politics: there is a knife threat out there, so folk are going out "tooled up". The possession of "a weapon" appears to provide a sense of security - just like us having a nuclear deterent. With a generation of socio-pathic yobs, and a lack of low tolerance police presence, with liberal sentencing - one can understand a "kill or be killed" attitude developing.

[Peter T]

And that's just for asking directions.

[observer]

Believe you have to avoid "eye contact"

[observer]

PS. Gordon has spent the week-end in a brain storming session at Chequers; and initial ideas emerging are to make knife carriers visit victims, hospital A&Es etc - WOW, that should do the trick, eh?!