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Protectionism?

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observer    552

Didn't Gordon Brown once utter the phrase "British jobs for British workers"? :? Yet now he's ranting against protectionism, which I assume means looking after your own, by buying and employing British - alas, it would seem impossible for this Gov to put Britain and the British people first in any consideration. :twisted:

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Bazj    498
Its called a free market :!:

 

Are you advocating protectionism :?:

 

I would.... no good if all the workers here are johnny foreigners and all our people are on the dole.

 

Once again Europe puts itself first and we lose out

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Lt Kije    101

Many UK citizens work abroad, what do think would happen to them if your ill thought out policy took hold, I work in power generation and oil and gas, I have many friends that work abroad, We send there workers home they send ours home :!:

 

Maggie shut the coal mines because they were not price competitive , I take it from your stance on this you were out on the streets fighting policemen in support of the miners. Uk companies also put in for the tender and lost.

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observer    552

As I've said: the "free market" which includes the free movement of labour throughout the EU, is merely a licence to import cheap labour. :shock: EU law as provided for only the minimum legal provisions to be upheld by companies employing foreign workers in the UK, thus they can be paid the National minimum wage, irrespective of the rates of pay previously negotiated in the industry. :twisted: As I've said on here ad nauseum, all the ingredients of an explosive social cocktail are coming together, and perhaps the latest strikes are going to prove to be the spark that sets off that explosion - hopefully causing major political changes that will see us exit the EU asap and free ourselves from EU dictatorship that supercedes our National sovereignty. :wink:

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Bazj    498

It is true that many UK citizens work abroad but many work for UK based or owned companies working on UK funded and run installations paying taxes to the UK economy. My policy isn't ill thought out by any stretch and it isn't really a policy is it? I am sure that the Nigerian labour market is brimming with unemployed highly trained oil and gas workers?

 

What this company did or have done, is won the tender which included a proviso that all contractors should be paid the nationally agreed site rates (something which all companies who tendered had to adhere to) and then appear to have skimped on other sections of the tender to keep their bid lower than the competitors and so win the business.

 

They then bring in their own foreign labour but pay them less than the national agreed rate (because they are allowed to under EU law) so they are able to under cut the UK companies bidding for the work. They have even stuck a floating hotel in the nearby docks to house them all in so even the local hotels aren't gaining any benefit. It wouldn't suprise me if they didn't all stock up on bloody fags and booze on the way over either!

 

Now forgive me for being naive but that is a bit cheaty isn't it?

 

I am about to advertise for some staff as we have quite a lot of work on the books and coming in at the moment but If I was costing jobs and including a labour cost at less than say the minimum wage; chances are I would win a lot more!

 

and as for the

I work in power generation and oil and gas
if this company are allowed to get away with undercutting UK labour rates; you might not be for much longer! The loop hole has to be closed immediately and the one eyed PM must stick by his "British jobs for British Workers" soundbyte

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Lt Kije    101
It is true that many UK citizens work abroad but many work for UK based or owned companies

 

I think you will find they are not UK owned or based, If I had to pick a country I would say most companies working in oil and gas are Norwegian or American. Oil platforms in the North sea may be owned by Bp or Shell but you will find 95% of the people working on them are contractors working for many different companies, Its the same in the Nigerian and Russian fields.

 

What would you call a British job these days :?:

 

And what jobs in the UK should be reserved for UK citizens only :?:

 

I do not think these companies are allowed to undercut UK wage rates

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Bazj    498

Well to answer a few points.... A British job is a job primarily in Britain which should be filled primarily by a British workman unless suitable workmen cannot be found to do the job.

 

What jobs should be reserved for UK citizens? Well I would say that any work involving the main country infrastructure for a start; but again only if suitable labour can be found. No one is saying we shouldn't employ foreigners, I am saying we should only employ them when there is a need. You can't keep UK workers on benefits payed for by taxes from you and me and then give any work to a foreign company employing foreign labour and all their taxes are paid to their country of origin. In that case, not only do we have to pay the dole money, we miss out on any tax revenue as well.

 

As for paying less than the minimum wage; I would have thought you being a pro european would know that if say a Slovakian company wins a job in the UK and decides to ship in all of its own labour; it only has to pay the minimum wage in their country of origin and not the country they are working in. To that end, the minimum wage in Slovakia is currently 296 euros (gross) per month. The UK by comparisson equates to 1,132.40 euros Goss per month.

 

It is legal and it does not break the EU rules to do this. If you would like to see what the minimum wage is in other European states, check this site out: http://www.fedee.com/minwage.html You may be suprised! Portugal is only a third of our wage and Spain is about half (these are where the workers are from that are in the refinery jobs)

 

So if their company had to price the job allowing for our wage rates to be taken into account they would have had say a million pounds for labour. If they then only have to pay half or a third of that to their workers; they then have a half million pound advantage over any UK based rivals for the price of the rest of the job!

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observer    552

Well covered Baz: if I could add another dimension to this issue - these neo-liberal ideas of free movement around the globe, don't really sit well with their usual pontifications about saving the planet from the scourge of transport pollution - it would seem logical, that the less people "move", the better, from a "green" perspective. :? So keeping economic activity "localised" and maximising self sufficiency through the use of "local" labour would seem common sense - after all, wasn't our local MP saying the same thing recently?! :wink: As for "which" jobs should be reserved for British citizens; well ALL of them, and imported labour only allowed where there is an absence of required skills or interest - put simply, a British FIRST policy. :shock: Whilst in the past 10 years of a feckless boom, NuLab has allowed an unmanaged invasion of economic immigration into the UK; (as I said many times), with increasing unemployment (now predicted to be over 3million) such natural social tensions will increase, and if the three main Parties can't protect the National interest, folk will begin voting for Parties that will. :shock::wink:

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Bazj    498

Or say that they will...... :wink:

 

But gullable people believe politicians Paul; why do you think Brown and Bliar survived for so long? Why do you think the posh ex-tory Sean whatsisname millionaire with a roller and a butler won in St Helens? (a bit like the Paul Whitehouse "hello, we're Geordies divan't ya naa?) Blinkered Labour voters at their finest hour!!

 

They promised the earth and in the end couldn't deliver.

 

What Obs is saying will happen if the unemployment rate continues to rise and the government continue to let in migrant workers to take work that could be done by unemployed Brits.

 

We are not talking about the unemployed chavs who want to sit at home and watch Jeremy Kyle, I am talking about the workers who have worked since leaving school and will find themselves out of work and want to work.... those are the people who will start voting for parties that promise to kerb this immigration influx and what they see as foreigners nicking the jobs.

 

Those type of people are not interested in the rhetoric about us being able to work anywhere in Europe, they want to work here.

 

The papers are also starting to whip this up too...... there be trouble a'brewin'

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Paul Kennedy    33

You are right Baz.

 

Interestingly looking into what is going on a little bit more, it is not only about the concept of British jobs for British workers, it is also the concern that the imported workforce is being used by Total (a French company) to attempt to undercut the wages, conditions and union representation of existing British workers that they employ. My guess is that the unions, maybe correctly, see that Total is the "thin end of the wedge", and they must of course be greatly concerned about union representation as without that they are powerless to negotiate terms and conditions.

 

In what are very difficult times for certain sections of the British workforce, I'm surprised that Total couldn't see this coming, had they have just allowed the foreign contractors to do the job, rather than also use them to "bash" their British workforce's terms and conditions, they might have got away with it. It would be interesting to see if Total would pull such a stunt in France...I think not.

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Lt Kije    101

Total put the work out to tender and gave it to the cheapest company, Mr Kennedy conspiracy theory makes a good read but is pure crap. I would also like to ask Mr Kennedy how far he would go to protect British jobs as he is a supporter of the party that shut the coal mines, as they could not compete on price.

 

As for your point about Total trying that stunt in France no they wouldn't as well he knows they have tougher labour laws,something Paul your party is dead against.

 

I can see that a tory would find it hard commenting on this topic with there track record on protecting British jobs ,were you hoping that everyone had short memories.

 

How far should we protect British jobs, should we keep a factory open who's goods no one is buying because a factory in India is make them for half the price. Just how far down the protectionist route do you want to go, Its a slippery slope :!:

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Paul Kennedy    33
Total put the work out to tender and gave it to the cheapest company, Mr Kennedy conspiracy theory makes a good read but is pure crap.

 

How do you know it is a conspiracy theory.

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Paul Kennedy    33

No

 

PS I can't be, I drive a German car and made money by selling equipment made all over the world...was even the Chief Executive of an engineering company with a factory in China making components then imported back into the UK for finishing....mind you all the design work was done in the UK.

 

On the subject of the "wildcat" strikes, interestingly they are actually illegal, although I sense employers wouldn't sack them for going out on strike as that would be somewhat provocative.

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Bazj    498
So Paul are you for protectionism or not :?:

 

If you are how far would you go :?:

 

I see that now that you cannot defend your corner against my evidence and arguments against Europe and their cheap labour workforces taking higher paid UK jobs; you are turning it into a semi-personal attack on Paul and his party.

 

The Conservatives have been out of power for 12 long years and we have been in the hands of the Nu labour idiots since. Why didn't the Labour government re-open the precious coal mines? Maybe they weren't economical enough perhaps?

 

Labour have been blaming the Tories for as long as they could get away with it and are now blaming the "worldwide economic downturn" (If we are in Europe, why didn't this shield us from it eh? all these like minded countries looking after each other?) TOSH Brown has now started balming something else for his incompetance and short-comings. Labour had ample opportunity to reverse some of the Tory policies they continue to moan about (Obama has wasted no time in turning round a raft of Bush's laws and policies) Labour and Labour alone are to blame for this mess; no one else

 

After all, most of the tory MP's weren't even around when Maggie was doing what she did so how can you blame them? Some things never change, Labour will always be about handing money to the feckless and the workshy and employing as many public sector people as they can, then the Tories come along and have to sort out the mess they create. How are we supposed to pay for all of this national debt we are being saddled with? How do we continue to pay all of these gold plated public pensions when they retire (well we all know that the rest of us have to work longer to pay for them)

 

It is a sham, we have been dragged into a full scale federal Europe without so much as a question being asked of the people, despite Brown and Bliars promises (change a few words and call it something else and the oiks will never know).... well now we know what Europe is all about; screwing GB for contirbutions far far in excess of what we can ever hope to get back, allowing cheap labour to come over here by some carefully instigated loopholes and show me one bloody benefit we get from it all that is worth all that?

 

We need to open our eyes and fast in this country before we give absolutely everything away to the power mad, money grabbing and wasting Euro parliament.

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Paul Kennedy    33

Thanks for the support Baz....the one thing about posting in ones own name is that you develop a thick skin. :wink::)

 

PS as I understand it, Lt Kije is an imaginary soldier from a novel by Yury Tynyanov, a fantasy.........say no more :wink::D

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Bazj    498
Thanks for the support Baz....

 

It won't happen too often Paul, but I can't stand this pro Euro nonsense as though it has been the great saviour of the country or something.

 

Even Bliar in his own way started to screw things up by allowing the jocks and the taffies to have their own parliaments. Now all they do is vote for something ("I know fellow Scots, lets all have free university education or free prescriptions.... all those in favour of the English paying for it say "AYE"!")

 

I will be voting tory at the next election and that is based on the fact the current lot have lost the plot and are going to be costing me and my kids a lot of money for many years to come.

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Paul Kennedy    33

Well you will be pleased to know Baz, that I would scrap the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly, as I can see no overall benefit from them. I've often said that I'm all for small and minimal Government, and I repeat it again.

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Lt Kije    101

Baz would your protectionism have protected the Miners and British Leyland how far does it go :?: British Leyland went under because they made crap expensive cars, Jonney foreigner made cheaper better cars, British coal cost more than Polish coal, they could not compete, so good british jobs went.

 

Paul

 

As your party were against the minimum wage, Would you count this tender process that Total have gone though as more evidence that it does not work :?:

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