observer Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Certainly in in the context of specific regimes over specific time periods, I would tend to agree. However, " political ideology" is a fairly recent development in a history where all ideology had a religious base, and in terms of lives lost, you then need to assess the cumulative effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 So Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, the Romans, the Vandals, Vikings, Goths, Napoleon etc etc etc weren't politically driven? It's all very simplistic to blame religion all the time, when the reality is that many times the idealogues use religion as a cloak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 I partially agree with asperity, some religious Wars were politically driven, The Crusade's come's to mind. But I would say Religion has a lot to answer for when it comes to persecution and the death of millions over the centuries. And the Christian religion is one of the worst when it comes to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Scottie, when it comes to mass exterminations, religion, the crusades in particular, is a mere bit player in comparison to communism and fascism, with capitalism running a close third. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Don't forget the genocide involved in taking God and disease to the heathens throughout the colonial period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 A lot of straw clutching going on there Obs :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 perhaps crucifix clutching! However, I wouldn't describe the Barbarian invasions of the Roman Empire or the Viking invasion of Britain as generated by "political ideology", they were economically driven for plunder and "a better life", only those days, it was done at the point of a sword! (cue Kije!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 perhaps crucifix clutching! However, I wouldn't describe the Barbarian invasions of the Roman Empire or the Viking invasion of Britain as generated by "political ideology", they were economically driven for plunder and "a better life", only those days, it was done at the point of a sword! (cue Kije!) But these are more examples of non religious conflicts Obs. So you must be agreeing with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 To a point, but not entirely - just a glance around today's world exposes religion as the catalyst for conflict; hence the so-called "war on terror". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Just a glance around the world today exposes just ONE religion as a catalyst for conflict, one which laughingly calls itself "the religion of peace". I don't see any reports of Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddist, Sikh, Jainist or even Jedi suicide bombers murdering innocent people in the name of an imaginary concept. Don't imagine for one second that this is a war between religions but rather what it is, the war of one religion against the rest of the world. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Sri Lanka , Buddhists killing Tamils, Jews taking land from Muslims Ireland is still putting it's self together Lots of religious indifference and killing of other religions Asp Pakistan and India have had a few wars in recent history. Death and destruction in the name of religion has been around as long as religion and will remain as long as religion, but I do agree with you that a lot of wars that have been fought for so called religious grounds were actually political. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Sri Lanka , Buddhists killing Tamils, Jews taking land from Muslims Ireland is still putting it's self together Lots of religious indifference and killing of other religions Asp Pakistan and India have had a few wars in recent history. Death and destruction in the name of religion has been around as long as religion and will remain as long as religion, but I do agree with you that a lot of wars that have been fought for so called religious grounds were actually political. The Tamils are, themselves, mainly Buddhist. Jews taking land from Muslims? Very debateable given that the questionable ownership of the land historically. Ireland has never really been about religion, come on be honest! It's nationalism. Face the truth, if England had remained Catholic Ireland would still have wanted freedom from English tyranny. Pakistan and India is a more complex problem than can be explained by religion solely from the viewpoint that India has several religious groupings apart from their weird class system. Pakistan of course adheres to "the religion of peace". So Lt Kije are you amongst the majority keeping your head below the parapet and denying that the only religion carrying on religious war is "the religion of peace"? Your god help you then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Christianity has had its religious wars Asp, you have to remember the Muslim religion when compared to other World religions is very young, I think Christianity has killed more people since it's inception than the Muslims, but they are catching up fast. The Tamil Tigers were a Muslim organisation fighting for a Tamil State, they were imported into Sri Lanka by the British to pick tea if my memory serves me right, another legacy left by our Imperial ambitions but I think that for another thread. Even if you believe in the State of Israel, it has now expanded past those borders so is taking Muslim land. Your view on Ireland is pure speculation and though I find your point interesting it remains just that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Ulster: two sectarian groups who regularly provoke each other with anachronistic parades. Burma: Budists killing minority Muslims. Israel: Fanatical Zionists, who actually believe the (Arab) land was bequeathed to them by God. Syria & Iraq: Sunnis v Shias. Egypt: Extreme Islamists v Coptic Christians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 throw I find your point ingesting ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 But you are both ignoring the fact that, although religious differences have contributed to the murder of countless millions of people, they are far outnumbered by the idealistic politicians who have often used religious differences as a cover for their murderous intentions. Quite why you both are trying to cover up the Islamist desire to kill everyone who doesn't bow down to their will is quite beyond me. In fact no-one seems willing to even comment on it. Why is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Ulster: two sectarian groups who regularly provoke each other with anachronistic parades. Burma: Budists killing minority Muslims. Israel: Fanatical Zionists, who actually believe the (Arab) land was bequeathed to them by God. Syria & Iraq: Sunnis v Shias. Egypt: Extreme Islamists v Coptic Christians. You are so ignorant of reality it really amazes me. Israel - If Israel had been formed by atheists the "religion of peace" would be trying to wipe them out. Syria and Iraq - two forms of the same "religion of peace" trying to wipe each other out. Egypt - the "religion of peace" trying to wipe out the Christians. Burma I think is a civil war, though I may be mistaken. The point is that in the overall picture these are minor disagreements when compared to the mass murder committed by political idealists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 The Tamil Tigers were a Muslim organisation fighting for a Tamil State http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2070817.stm It's not often that you're right, but you're wrong again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 Christianity has had its religious wars Asp, you have to remember the Muslim religion when compared to other World religions is very young, I think Christianity has killed more people since it's inception than the Muslims, but they are catching up fast. Christianity is 2000 years old and Islam 1400. Not that much difference I would say (Islam very young?). I hope you enjoy Sharia Law Lt Kije. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Quite why you both are trying to cover up the Islamist desire to kill everyone who doesn't bow down to their will is quite beyond me. In fact no-one seems willing to even comment on it. Why is that? If your Avatar had to be your own picture, would one or both be wearing a burka? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 You might find this useful Asp. http://www.bandoli.no/warfare.htm More people have died by persecution or War started by the Christians than have died by Muslims, as I said the Muslims are catching up fast. I have no axe to grind as I am an atheist, I have no time for either religion but I do find it amazing that Christians deny their own history, Christianity has been one of the bloodiest religions, it is only in its recent history that it has got a grip on its violence, and in that the Muslims could learn from the Christians. The Muslim civil war Shia killing Sunni, is similar to Catholics and Protestants in Europe, the 30 year War springs to mind, and as we both know there are still hot spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Again I'm not denying that religion has been the cause of wars, death and destruction. But I am arguing that even that pales into insignificance when compared to the millions who have died because of politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted October 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 If your Avatar had to be your own picture, would one or both be wearing a burka? Eagle, I don't suppose you would care to translate that for me. It doesn't make much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Asp I think eagle was having a dig at me and Obs on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Again I'm not denying that religion has been the cause of wars, death and destruction. But I am arguing that even that pales into insignificance when compared to the millions who have died because of politics. I am not saying your wrong, the trouble is politicians are very good a dressing things up, and many wars that have been fought for political reasons have been dressed up as other reasons some of which were religious. The recent history of the Muslim religion is terrible !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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