Tracey Bennett Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 I looked at that plot Algy and have to admit I discounted it as a possibility as the plot details weren't recorded, those you quote are from the larger plot next door (with 2 long buildings on it, edged by Rolleston St). I managed to find James Marsh on the 1871 Census and his address is Rolleston St and his occupation is listed as "income derived from house rents". Can't seem to see any other house that looks a likely candidate for a 'Hall'. I'm now wondering whether it was actually an uninhabited village hall/function room type of thing but the main puzzle is why it would be there so long as be so significant as to have a street named after it, yet seem to leave no historical record? It's all very odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peridot1 Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Extract from Warrington and the Mid - Mersey Velley by G A Carter page 100: "The purchase of property for the construction of this part of the Cheshire Lines Railway also resulted in the demolition of a building that gave it's rather intriguing name to Frog Hall Lane. This building is shown un - named on the 1772 Map but on the 1851 OS Map the same building is named "Frog Hall". Frog Hall evidently existed long before the 1772 Map was compiled however for an Indenture dated June 5th 1733 between George, Earl of Warrington and and Mathew Lyon shows that among other properties sold by the Earl to Mathew Lyon was a "Messuage or Tenement commonly called Froghall together with the Close or field thereto adjoining and belonging, situate and being on Warrington Heath within Warrington aforesaid late in the possession of Mathew Jenkinson, Husbandman and Tenant to the said Mathew Lyon". This indenture gives us therefore the name and description of one tenant of Frog Hall but unfortunately all attempts to discover subsequent occupiers until the Hall was demolished in order to make way for the railway have so far failed." This book was published in 1971 and is my bible for pre 1974 Warrington which is the Warrington I remember. Strongly recommended and was noticed by my wife for £7 on the Internet when copies were (are) fetching far more. Before gettng my own copy I had it on extended periods from the local library and never tire of reading it though until today had not looked at it for quite a while. Peridot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracey Bennett Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Thanks for that Peridot, I order a copy yesterday after you mentioned it. I remember getting that book out of the library years and years ago, will be good to have my own copy. Fascinating information, I'm guessing the status of the hall was diminished by the Victorian era, maybe even derelict or something. So frustrating that so little is recorded of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 I just looked on Amazon and used copies are available for £3.68. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Tessla Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 It should not be assumed that the "hall" bit refers to a building (at least not originally) - other derivations in place names include nook of land , and may be related to the old English " halh" - which can be used to describe land in a hollow or riverbend, or an area of dry land in a marsh - which would seem to fit in with the frog connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracey Bennett Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 ooh, interesting. Froghall being described as a "Messuage or Tenement" doesn't suggest a building of high status so would fit with the topographical theory. I like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Certainly place names that appear to have obvious meanings may on research prove to be as Nick say, totally different to the first impression, I was convinced that 'Dungeon Lane' off Broad Lane in Grappenhall had something to do with a place of containment, whereas dungeon may mean 'marshy land'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Fascinating info Peridot1. Seems we are not the only ones to have failed in finding out who occupied the hall then which makes me feel better. I was just setting off to the library to borrow a copy of the book you mention as it sounds really interesting but having just checked to see that it's not out on loan it appears that all 10 copies are 'reference only' now and can't be borrowed. I'm a tad frustrated Nick T, you could be right there especially considering that Peridot's info shows it dating back to the 1700's. Algy, the land ownership details you have put with your tithe map image above are incorrect as the Frog Hall building and small parcel of land it is shown sitting on have no ownership details on the title apportionment docs. The ones you have posted are for the larger plot of land to the right of it Hope you don't mind me saying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Not much use but there is also a 'Froghall Field' shown on the tithe map ...... I also marked 'White Crop Wire and Iron Company' which is shown on the Tithe (1839-51) with the land owner being Lord Winmarleigh & White Crop Wire and Iron Company. Without wanting to take this topic off on a tangent....... anyone know if it was called that or should it read White Cross Wire.... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 No problem you mentioning land ownership Dizz. I have looked in trade directories 1828/9 and 1857 and no sign of a White Crop Wire & Iron Co. White Cross was the area over Bank Quay railway bridge called White Cross Bank where the White Cross works took it's name from, quite a distance from Foghall Lane. in the 1871 Worral's Trade Directory there is this entry:- Warrington Wire Iron Co., Ltd. Bewsey Iron Works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 I rather suspect it should be Whitecross. Do you know how Whitecross got it's name? Way back when people died it was rather a long distance to transport the body to the burial ground so they would rest up at an establishment before continuing the journey. The establishment had a white cross to indicate the place to rest. That's it in a nutshell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 As i remember ,Whitecross ,before its closure , occupied land in Milner St & in Froghall Lane between Froghall bridge where it crosses the West Coast line & going back towards Priestley Street. I don't know how long the works had been there but it was very old apart from 36 Mill in Milner St which opened in 1936. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Good info Flo!. In the 1871 directory I found a James Biddel, Wire Drawer who lived at 11. White Cross Terrace, Froghall Lane, also the area at the west side of Froghall railway bridge by Brierley and Keen Streets by the rail track was known as White Cross Wharf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Whitecross established in 1864, Davy, by Frederick Monks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Algy, Dungeon Lane? Is that the one at the side of the cricket field? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 14, 2013 Report Share Posted March 14, 2013 Algy, Dungeon Lane? Is that the one at the side of the cricket field? Baz, Further up broad Lane, two maps, one in detail showing 'The Dungeon' and the other generally of Grappenhall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Thanks Algy. I don't know how you keep getting me mixed up with Baz. He will be quite offended. Did you know there is another Yew Tree farm at the side of the prison near the Thorn? I bought a Lab puppy from there in the early 60's. now that is a thread hijack.lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Sorry Peter!, It's the avatar, i don't know why I associate the bulldog face with Baz'z personality, it must be because he's always snarling at Lt. obs and Nick. No I wasn't aware that there was another Yew Tree farm at Appleton Thorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 I love your style Algy. Got the tin hat ready? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 If that "bulldog" was still alive, I would bring her round to visit you. She would not be happy being called a bulldog. She is/was a boxer bitch called Sadie. (Mary used to feed her strawberries). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 Cleo, I never goe anywhere without my 'tin hat' Flo', and Peter I don't seem to be doing very well with identification of either Humans or animals!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 Never mind Alge, I believe you get that way with age. Thank heavens I'm still only 29. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 I don't think I have ever liked boxers. Somehow they scare me. Me, I love my siamese cats and have had 4 new additions for a week now since queen Samara gave birth to quadruplets in the early hours of last Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 Cleo, I never goe anywhere without my 'tin hat' Flo', and Peter I don't seem to be doing very well with identification of either Humans or animals!. Did you wear it at Ypres Algy ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algy Posted March 16, 2013 Report Share Posted March 16, 2013 Did you wear it at Ypres Algy ? no PJ, I was too young, I wore it at the 'Battle of Belleau Wood' June 6th 1918, took it off for the photo though!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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