Lt Kije Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Our armed forces are now only 80,000 strong Obs, not much weight for us to push our national interest if push comes to shove, Yet another reason to stay in the EU, as we have a louder voice on the World stage and more buying power Just saying that's all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted July 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 One's "national interest" doesn't necessary require the use of armed force - in fact quite the opposite. imo it would have been in OUR national interest NOT to have got involved in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And it doesn't require armed force to restrict imports into this country, be they goods or human; unless of course the Army take over from the UKBA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 What weight do we have on the internatal stage, we are a small Country Obs. And you still not answered the question about us being a trading nation, and you wanting to change that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted July 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 You appear to confuse influence on the "international stage" as a pre-requisite to securing one's "national interest". The objective in this volatile world is survival and the promotion of the economic and social wellbeing of our people. This requires a reduction in dependency on imports from others a) so we can't be blackmailed by Russia for it's gas for example, but so that our exports exceed our imports thus allowing a trade surplus with which we can afford improving social provision. This will involve a highly skilled and educated workforce, to stay ahead of the competition in high end technology, scientific invention,etc; which at the moment appears restricted to arms manufacturing and sales. We also require the manufacturing capacity to produce the results from an advanced R&D capability. It's nothing new to the UK, in the past we've invented possibly more than others, but have lacked the production capacity and finished up giving or selling them to others EG: Swing wing and VTOL technology to the Yanks, and after the war, we actually gave a rolls-royce jet engine to the Soviets, which they copied and fitted to their Migs, which were later used against us in the Korean War. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Ohhhh those Russians....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Obs Have yay ever owned a Rover car, we could not sell to our own population let alone export them, Are car industry was massive at one time, but we produced expensive crap, nobody wanted them, would you force the British population to buy British? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted July 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Perhaps "force" may be too strong a word, but perhaps just a touch of that patriotic zeal that everyone seems to be wearing on their sleeves nowadays, may have helped. However, quality is recognised by the world's wealthy, in the purchase of Rolls Royce (think their still British?!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Yes Roll Royce make quality cars, but they are now owned by BMW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Rolls Royce also make jet engines, and they are still British. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 They are separate companies now asperity, not been connected for years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted July 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Thanks Asp, I was relying on the jet engines, wasn't sure about the cars - although I do recall the issue came up under the Heath Gov, thought they'd bought in, but seems not. Which begs the question - should we allow foreign takeovers of our key industries and resources. We tolerate a weapons industry because it generally does well in the export market, but an independent production capability would also seem essential to our Defence capacity. Likewise, a capacity for self sufficiency (if only potential) in energy etc, would allow us to avoid future dependency on volatile markets. :shock: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 They are separate companies now asperity, not been connected for years Doh! :roll: (I can do rolleyes as well). I know that the Rolls Royce that makes the jet engines is not the same one that makes the cars (or indeed the Rolls Royce which produced the steering gear for my ship). But that doesn't alter the fact that Rolls Royce (the jet engine manufacturer) is a British company and a very successful one at that. The Heath government, in a rare moment of sanity, rescued the company from going bust and it has gone from strength to strength. Incidentally so much for this country having no manufacturers left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 I had a new Rover 75 when they came out; as did my business partner.... they had BMW common rail diesel engines in them. The "Real" Rover was destroyed in the 70's by the constant strikes and work to rule by the unions which became known as the "British Disease" I believe. Rover had all kinds of resue attempts to bring it back from the brink including partnerships with Honda which produced that marvel "The Acclaim".... Our 75's were good cars all in all, but it was too little too late and when the company was sold to Phoenix it was always going to be the slippery slope to bustness!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 A snapshot of British manufacturing: British manufacturing <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Think the last paragraph says it all, The contribution made by foreign-owned firms to output in the manufacturing sector in Great Britain has been steadily rising since the mid 1980s, while that made by UK firms has declined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Good point, Are you talking about British owned manufacturing, or any thing that was made here.? some companies Nissan being one of them choose the UK as it got them inside the euro zone, just saying that's all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 I am just making the point that claims made by certain parties on this forum that British manufacturing is in terminal decline are wide of the mark. Ownership of the firms involved is something of a red herring as they still contribute to the wealth of the nation and provide much needed employment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 No they are not a red herring, Multi national companies tend to be multi national until the Country they are from hits hard times, Peogoet shutting their factory in Coventry, It was more efficient than the French factories, Peogoet could not be seen to shut factories in France. British manufacturing has been in decline for years, Their are many reasons why, one of the main ones is cheap labour in third world countries, but that is a problem faced by all 1st world countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Of course British manufacturing has been in decline for decades - a direct result of cheaper labour in third world countries, which is impossible to compete with on price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 So Lt Kije and Obs, you both didn't bother actually reading the article: The productivity performance of manufacturing – defined as output per employee – more than doubled between 1985 and 2009. This trend has tended to be driven more by growth in manufacturing output than a decline in employment levels. Doesn't sound like a decline to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Did you say out put per employee, I have no doubt that per employee we are more productive, have you got another one that shows the amount of manufacturing companies over the same period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 I presume you can read Lt Kije. This trend has tended to be driven more by growth in manufacturing output than a decline in employment levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Peogoet Peogoet absolute Quality!!! :grin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 I dropped French as soon as I could Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 A survey and an article, not telling me anything I didn't know Asp, but they might inform you http://www.imeche.org/knowledge/themes/Manufacturing/engineered-in-britain http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/16/why-britain-doesnt-make-things-manufacturing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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