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Dizzy

 

My recollection is 26%. You also need capital to purchase a car! But stats show that fewer young people see cars as necessary or desire able.

 

Rod

 

Sorry Rod, not intentionally being awkward but re: your stats could you provide a link to where the "stats show that fewer young people see cars as necessary or desireable."

 

That's one that has definately thrown me as having a teenager myself and knowing that the vast majority of his friends, past school associates and even present associates at college (depite many coming from so called 'disadvantaged families and areas of Warrington') have now all passed their driving test and are driving around in their own cars, or their parents cars, it seems to me that young people DO still see the transition to having their own mode of transport a HUGE necessity and benefit either socially or perhaps more so as one that is very much desirable especially when it comes to hopefully getting a job.

 

Our lad seems to be in the minority these days as he has no car but if you have have any proof I'd love to show it to him so he stops moaning and feeling unloved :D

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from the link

 

Why Don't Young Americans Buy Cars?

 

first line of the article

 

Reuters

 

Kids these days. They don't get married. They don't buy homes. And, much to the dismay of the world's auto makers, they apparently don't feel a deep and abiding urge to own a car.

 

 

 

should really read

 

Reuters

 

Kids these days. They can't afford to get married. They can't afford to buy homes. And, much to the dismay of the world's auto makers, they can't afford to own a car.

 

 

 

but then again that is in America not the UK.

 

on a selfish note. I pay £140 per year road tax plus all the tax on petrol so that I can drive my car legally on the road. that being the case why should I use public transport as opposed to my car that I spend so much on?

 

pollution wise my car has an emission reading below 0.03 a sit is fitted with a cat despite that fact i still have to pay road tax as if it was a private light goods vehicle. a smart car which has the same emissions and engine size so puts out the same amount of pollution pays about £ 35 road tax or less. cars over 25 years old pay £0.00 road tax and probably put out more pollution per trip than mine will in five years.

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Errm Ok and thanks Rod but like already noticed that relates to American kids so hardly relevant really :unsure:

 

Not being rude (again), but do you have any evidence which relates to your comment that 'stats show that fewer young people see cars as necessary or desire able' FROM THE UK please !! :oops:

 

That's the trouble with stats these days, they can be gained from anywhere and are not necessarily relevant to elsewhere and of course stats have the added bonus of being easily manupilated or read to mean 'anything' depending on the way the original questions are asked and by who.... to who.

 

Thanks Road :D

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Rod.... I really don't know where you get this information from about kids not wanting cars..... With the exception of my oldest son, he is one of only 3 in his group of about 30 who don't own a car (He did have one but failed his test and left it on my drive thinking it would stay there.... I scrapped it!!)

 

They are opening a new test centre in Warrington because of the demand for young people wanting to pass their test and the fact that kids will still spend thousands of pounds on insurance rather than get a bus or buy a bike sonmewhat blows your arguement out of the water.

 

My youngest son is 11 in June and he already has a Corsair!! (which as Sid rightly says, attracts no tax and puts a load more pollutants into the air than his car does.... however we are limited on mileage with the classic cars as a stipulation on the insurance. One of mine can only do 1000 miles a year maximum but I've not done that in 3 years!

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Baz

 

I said that fewer see cars as necessary or desirable.

 

And I have given the reference as to where I got the information from.

 

Dizzy

 

Many parents discourage children from acquiring their own independent mobility through walking, cycling or public transport. That of course is their responsibility. Hence their children see their own car as the only way to get that mobility..

 

Of course statements such as ''But mum, I am the only person in the school without a car, iPod, power ranger, (delete as appropriate)" should be taken with a large dose of salt.

 

 

 

Rod

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Not a scientific idea of course, but perhaps the American experience has two factors.

 

Most big American cities have decent public transport (and Portland offers some free travel, and 8% of commuters cycle to work)...

 

And NB "Many young people care more about buying the latest smart phone or gaming console than getting their driver's license." - And you can't play with them while driving!

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Dizzy

 

Here are some graphs on car usage in the UK which you may find interesting:-

 

http://www.gordonstokes.co.uk/transport/peakcar.html

 

and

 

http://www.gordonstokes.co.uk/transport/caraccess.html

 

Main conclusions on the webpage were :-

 

The point of showing this is to show that the rate at which men gain access to cars in their late teens and twenties has slowed quite dramatically, but that in older age people with cars are holding on to them. It also shows that for women, there is still some growth in car access for the younger age groups, but is not marked. What is more marked for women is that there is much scope for older women to keep driving.

 

My interpretation is that there was a peak of access for men during the 1990s, and a steady fall in car access amongst younger men, accompanied by the increase for older men. The rise for older men is probably 'habit' of not giving up cars, rather than older men gaining cars. For women, the growth during the eighties and nineties is clear, and growth has continued. But there may be a sign in the last slide that younger women are reaching the stage where car access may have reached a peak. It may be due to recession, but it may be more than that.

 

My overall interpretation? I'm not an economist, but to put it in economic terms, I think that the propensity for men to access cars used to be well above the utility offered by the car up until recently. Over the last fifteen years it as dawned upon many that maybe the car isn't so wonderful as it seemed, and the pattern of access is returning to something more like the utility that it offers. But coupled with this, habit is a strong determinant of behaviour, and so men with cars are not giving them up until they are in their 80s. What a true level of utility is is difficult to define, and could change as other factors in society change.

 

For women the situation is different. A mix of less power and income (probably coupled with a bit more sense in many cases) meant that the car never achieved the status it did for men, but there is still, maybe, some potential for growth, but even for women, most of the growth now will be from older women not giving up cars, rather than more younger women acquiring them.

 

Other research can be found at

 

http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/16873/1/Chatterjee%20and%20Dudley%20RGS%202009.pdf

 

with a presentation on declining motor car usage. Note that they report that the proportion of young adults with driving licences decreased from 1992-4 to 2007: from 48% to 38% for the 17-20 year olds and from 75% to 66% for the 21-29 year olds.

 

Their analysis shows that motor car usage is declining as a long term trend and not just due to the recession.

 

Regards

 

 

 

Rod

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But when they are selling nearly 150,000 new cars a month, who do you think is buying them all? Car usage is not down that much considering the rises in fuel and more people will be using cars to offset the ridiculous and extortionate public transport costs....

 

and as for cycling to work; that is fine if the weather is like it was the other week, but who wants to get drenched all the way to work and then sit there like a smelly wet dog all day???

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Keep a towel and a change of clothes at work and you don't need to be a smelly dog all day. :wink:

 

I have a towel, a shower and all the clothes I need at home.... why would I do that???

 

Just drive and be civilised!!

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I have a towel, a shower and all the clothes I need at home.... why would I do that???

 

Just drive and be civilised!!

 

I think the idea is that when it is raining you wear waterproof clothing. You really are not showing much resilience here Baz.

 

But your "smelly dog" problems aside, the articles I referenced were about the number of drivers reducing and not about car sales.

 

However, as you have brought the subject up, here is a quote from a Car Magazine report :-

 

The UK car market fell 4.4% in 2011 to its worst year for at least a decade. Brits bought 1,941,253 vehicles last year as private motorists put off that new car purchase and stuck with their existing wheels or went secondhand.

 

Retail sales took the brunt of the fall, with a 14% collapse on 2010's figures. Just 823,094 private buyers signed on the dotted line.

 

You canread the full article at http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/Industry-News/UK-2011-car-sales-analysis-winners-and-losers/

 

So it appears that number of drivers is down and the number of cars being sold is down.

 

Whilst I respect your view that you prefer to drive a car rather than cycle or use public transport, the figures show that increasing numbers either by desire or necessity are deciding not to.

 

Other countries such as Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Denmark have much higher cycling numbers than the UK. Do you think they are "uncivilised" for using bicycles? Do you think it "uncivilised" to create an environment where children can and do cycle or walk?

 

 

 

Best regards

 

 

 

Rod

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Rod,

 

the downturn in new car sales is usually compensated by an increase in used car sales.... so things aren't as bad as you anti-car types would like it to be I'm afraid....

 

If you really want to do something to help the public; instead of wasting your time with the 20's plenty campaign and being party to decieving people into thinking the actual costs are far lower than they turn out to be when the pilots finish and all the main roads are excluded fropm the actual real roll outs; thus increasing the costs dramatically to cover all the countless extra road signs that are suddenly needed..... was that your idea or the councils by the way because whoever it was; it was a good one!!

 

Why not do a 30's plenty campaign? 30 being 30p which is the maximum cost that a single bus ticket should be anywhere within a town or city boundary?? I'd even vote for you myself! :D

 

and finally, I would like to bring to your attention yet another red light jumping cyclist... this afternoon on Lovely Lane, old lycra pants slows down and then pops through the red light onto the roundabout....

 

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Couple of key questions to the original point.

 

- Do WBT have to pay back the costs if the service fails or do they get 4 free buses from the taxpayer.

 

- Lowerign car use reduces traxes raised which exceed the costs of vehicles. There is already a problem brewing with low emission vehicles / efficent vehicles raising less taxes. If we all stopped using the car, PT couldnt cope and the loss of revenue would be unpalpable.

 

- Where do we get the funds to pay for the extra space on certain types of trapsort if the car user raises less? Most rush hour trains are already full and even a 10% conversion couldnt be coped with.

 

I still remain concerned that this has just been given to WBT and not tendered for / offerred elsewhere. WBT have a cartel on 95% of all bus use in Warrington. A bit of competition would be healthy and only benefit Warrington.

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There is nothing to encourage bus use in Warrington; especially when it comes to the cost of a ticket..... My friend took his girls to Liverpool on Sunday and it was cheaper to take the car to town and park up rather than to get the bus....

 

manchester used to have a scheme many years ago when they had the old orange and white buses, whereby travel anywhere within the boundaries of the city on a single journey (one stop or twenty stops long) was 2p

 

Now I know that is a bit cheap by todays standards, but a single one off fare would make things a lot more attractive than costing umpteen pounds to go from Westbrook to town and back

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Hi Baz

 

the downturn in new car sales is usually compensated by an increase in used car sales.... so things aren't as bad as you anti-car types would like it to be I'm afraid....

 

I thought that selling a used car merely transferred it from one owner to another.

 

If you really want to do something to help the public; instead of wasting your time with the 20's plenty campaign

 

"Wasting time" is an opinion rather than a fact. I tend to think that 8m people now living in authorities with a 20mph policy is quite successful!

 

I will leave you to campaign for 30p bus fares as I am rather busy at the moment.

 

Regarding your photo of a cyclist slowly turning left through a red light, I really am not sure how that is relevant. I don't condone anyone going through a red light whether it be a person on a 10kg bike or a 1500kg car. Does your camera only see pedestrians and cyclists or does it record motorists speeding up to go through red lights as well?

 

Regards

 

rod

 

 

 

And I was not surprised by the

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I thought that selling a used car merely transferred it from one owner to another.

 

 

....but what about the number of used cars on dealer forecourts? You can only say that sales of cars has decreased if you know that figure has remained constant throughout whatever period you are using as an example.....

 

Number of used cars on dealer forecourts goes up less than new car sales = less cars being sold

 

Number of used cars on dealer forecourts goes down more than the drop in new car sales = more cars being sold

 

"Wasting time" is an opinion rather than a fact. I tend to think that 8m people now living in authorities with a 20mph policy is quite successful!

 

Sorry Rod, much as I may have reservations about the 20mph limits, I cannot argue that your campaign has been successful.... although you didn't acknowledge the little con trick to make the costs seem lower than they were by including main roads to fudge the number of signs that would be needed after the rollout without the main roads included

 

 

Regarding your photo of a cyclist slowly turning left through a red light, I really am not sure how that is relevant. I don't condone anyone going through a red light whether it be a person on a 10kg bike or a 1500kg car. Does your camera only see pedestrians and cyclists or does it record motorists speeding up to go through red lights as well?

 

First of all (and as Vivian from the Young Ones once said "IT'S A VIDEO")the fact that he was going slowly is of no consequence..... he should have been stopped until the Green light came on...

 

The camera records everything including the idiot driver that cut me up in France (See previous post!!) and as for speeding up to go through red lights.... isn't that a bit suicidal or did you mean amber ones.....??

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Dizzy

 

Note that they report that the proportion of young adults with driving licences decreased from 1992-4 to 2007: from 48% to 38% for the 17-20 year olds and from 75% to 66% for the 21-29 year olds.

 

Their analysis shows that motor car usage is declining as a long term trend and not just due to the recession.

 

Regards

Rod

 

 

Surely a huge factor in the global 10% noted drop for 17-20 year olds is not because they don't want to drive or own a car but more likely because most are out of work or still in full time education so they quite simply can't afford to buy/run/insure a car or being at UNI etc they don't need one.

 

With average insurance for a older little 1 ltr car being over £2000 for a young driver and with petrol being so costly it does amaze me just how many youngsters are on the roads these days.

 

Like I've said before out of all the kids my sons age around here have ALL now passed their driving tests and ALL either have their own cars (all newer than our two cars too) or access to mums/dads/shared cars so there is certainly no decline in young drivers in Warrington that I can see.

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