Can of worms?

[Lt Kije]

there seems little doubt that the main cause of the disaster was three-fold: the design of the stadium' date=' the conduct of the fans[/quote']

Fans, I take it that is your opinion

[observer]

When the coppers opened that gate, who were the mob that came rushing INTO the Stadium? Were they coppers dressed in civvies?

[P J]

and when the Zeebrugge Ferry captain opened his gates I suppose it was then the sea's fault the ship sank. Go here Observer and get some facts. http://www.hfdinfo.com/

[wolfie]

Fans, I take it that is your opinion

 

Lt, one of the outcomes of the Taylor report was the 'Football Spectators Act' and one of the main proposals of the act, suggested the compulsory distribution of identity cards to every football fan attending league, cup and international matches played in England and Wales. as a means of identifying any known football hooligans and preventing them from entering stadiums.

[observer]

So once fans become a crowd, they become as blameless as the sea.

[P J]

So once fans become a crowd, they become as blameless as the sea.

 

Click the link I posted, read it, then come back hopefully a little less ignorant than you are right now.

[observer]

Don't need, saw the film on the News: the coppers opened the gate, and the sea of fans rushed in, presumably without tickets!

[Lt Kije]

P j

 

Obs and ignorance are synonymous!!!

[wolfie]

There is no new material in that link that hasn't already been made available, so in that respect obs doesn't need to read it.

The whole point of the topic is the persistance of demanding more information and details until you get the answer that you want, and if the information that you get doesn't suit, then it is dismissed as lies and a disgrace.

 

When the Chief superintendant and Superintendant on the day were tried in a court of law and one found not guilty and the other no decision could be made, at that point the whole thing should have been put to bed.

 

The actions regarding stadium safety have all been put into operation, albeit that everyone is now standing in all seater stadiums.

[Lt Kije]

He does need to read it Wolfie, as he is ignorant of the facts, he has seen snippets on the news and come to a conclusion missing most of the facts.

 

I do not believe that all facts have come into the light about what happened and I am prepared to wait till the new report is out before passing judgment on anyone.

[wolfie]

I am prepared to wait till the new report is out before passing judgment on anyone.

 

The fans were vindicated in the end it was a cock up by south Yorkshire police

 

:roll:

[Lt Kije]

The first report, did point the finger Wolfie, information is still coming out. I cannot help think that if something negative comes out about the fans, you will be rubbing your hands with glee

[wolfie]

The first report, did point the finger Wolfie, information is still coming out. I cannot help think that if something negative comes out about the fans, you will be rubbing your hands with glee

 

Something negative as already come out Lt but many will refuse to acknowledge it, regardless of whether it's true or not.

 

Not sure if you are a football supporter Lt, but I go to every United home league match and some away, and have been doing for longer than I can remember. I've seen first hand how supporters behave (including United) In any tragedy there is fan involvement, whether it is nothing more than discarding a lighted cigarette as in The Bradford fire or a full scale riot as at Heysel. Supporters are part of the game, as is football stadiums and security (Police or Stewards).

 

I never would rub my hands with glee, as you put it, when people are killed at a football match regardless of whether they are Liverpool fans or any other fans.

[Lt Kije]

For the record Wolfie, I am a Leeds fan, because of work I go and watch them 3 or 4 times a season. I have friends who are Man City and Bolton season ticket holders and if one of them can not go I nick their ticket, I have watched city four times this season and Bolten 8 times.

 

I am a fan of football, banter between rival fans is great, I would go and watch any team if I got a free ticket

[wolfie]

Then you will have seen first hand how fans can behave.

[observer]

If fans insist on turning up at stadiums without tickets, you have an excess of numbers and therefore a crowd problem. If the police deal with the crowd in a draconian manner and ensure "control", you get claims of police abuse - so they can't win. Either way, as Wolfie says, these people would be asking for Inquiry after Inquiry until they get the answers THEY want, then they can get their claims in, which is basically what it's all about.

[P J]

If fans insist on turning up at stadiums without tickets, you have an excess of numbers and therefore a crowd problem. If the police deal with the crowd in a draconian manner and ensure "control", you get claims of police abuse - so they can't win. Either way, as Wolfie says, these people would be asking for Inquiry after Inquiry until they get the answers THEY want, then they can get their claims in, which is basically what it's all about.

 

"The possibility of fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forgeries contributing to the disaster was also suggested. South Yorkshire Police also suggested that the late arrival of fans amounted to a conspiracy in order to gain entry without tickets. However, analysis of the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive analysis and eyewitness accounts showed that the total number of people who had already entered the Leppings Lane End was far below the capacity of the stand. Additionally, eye witness reports suggested that tickets were easily available on the day of the game, and that tickets for the Leppings Lane End were still on sale from Anfield until the day before the game. The report dismissed the conspiracy theory."

 

And you say you know the facts. As for the claims part of your post, the best I can think of to say is that you are at least consistently obnoxious.

[P J]

 

 

When the Chief superintendant and Superintendant on the day were tried in a court of law and one found not guilty and the other no decision could be made, at that point the whole thing should have been put to bed.

 

 

 

Not quite the truth though Woolfie.

 

 

"A private prosecution was brought against David Duckenfield and another officer on duty, Bernard Murray. Prosecutor Alun Jones QC told the court that Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield gave the order to open gates so that hundreds of fans could be herded on to the already crowded terraces at the Hillsborough stadium. Mr Jones then stated that minutes after the disaster, [Duckenfield] "deceitfully and dishonestly" told senior FA officials that the supporters had forced the gate open themselves. Duckenfield admitted that he had lied about certain statements regarding the causes of the disaster. Several other officers, including Norman Bettison, were accused of manipulating evidence. Bettison was later to be appointed Chief Constable of Merseyside in controversial circumstances. The prosecution was abandoned when Duckenfield's doctor declared him unfit to stand trial due to illness. Because he was unavailable, it was decided that it would be unfair to proceed with the charges against Bernard Murray. Duckenfield took medical retirement on a full police pension."

[wolfie]

Well this is a direct quote from the link you posted PJ

 

After two years of legal wrangling, a case was finally put to a jury in Leeds,West Yorkshire, and lasted for six weeks. On July 21st 2000, after four days

of deliberation, the jury found Murray not guilty of manslaughter. Four days

later the jury announced it could not reach a verdict on Duckenfield.

 

Are you saying that the documentation on that link is not true? If so I stand corrected.

[Eagle]

"However, analysis of the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive analysis and eyewitness accounts showed that the total number of people who had already entered the Leppings Lane End was far below the capacity of the stand."

 

 

 

"gave the order to open gates so that hundreds of fans could be herded on to the already crowded terraces at the Hillsborough stadium."

 

Which one is correct then?

[observer]

Presume the film of the fans surging INTO the Stadium through the opened gate, was doctored then PJ; and they were all actually in local pubs, peacefully watching the game on TV?!

[P J]

As some seem unable or unwilling to read the information themselves, here is an excerpt from the document which I hope helps. My apologies for the length of the post.

 

 

Even Distribution Of Supporters

SYP “hoped” that even distribution would be achieved, instead of taking action to guarantee it. They reasoned that, by leaving all pens open, the supporters would eventually level themselves out. Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, the officer in overall charge that day, assumed any supporters finding the central pens too crowded would be able “to turn around and walk out”. In theory, those fans would then fill up the emptier pens and distribution would be achieved. There was, however, only one way for fans to exit the central pens and that was to go back through, against the flow of incoming supporters, the same access tunnel which was 40ft in length, dark and had a slope steeper than the ‘Green Guide’ stipulated. The option to leave was made more difficult when a police tannoy announcement requested that supporters in the central pens should move forward so as to make room for others. By 2:30pm the option was completely gone, as many supporters within the pens and in the tunnel itself had lost voluntary control of their direction.

At this point, Duckenfield noted that the central pens were “getting on for being quite full”. Still, no order was given to direct supporters to the emptier pens. At the subsequent public inquiry, the SYP argued that, although it was common practice to monitor and close access to pens at league matches, at FA Cup semi-finals the pens were left open. That argument can be rejected easily due to the fact SYP monitored, closed access to, and “successfully” distributed supporters across the terraces at the ‘88 semi-final. Mr Lock, SWFC’s Security Officer and a former policeman, said, “It would have been quite easy to close the centre pens to ensure people were moved to the side pens.”

Duckenfield admitted that following this procedure was something that “didn’t cross his mind.” He had only been appointed 21 days before the match, had no recent experience in policing such a high profile match and the procedure had not featured in the previous year’s planning.As a result, numbers in the central pens continued to swell, whilst the wing pens remained relatively empty. BBC match commentator, John Motson, noticed the disparity in the pens and made reference to the lack of fans in the wing areas. Unbeknown to him, there were a substantial number of fans still outside, awaiting admittance.

 

“Open The Gate!”

Outside the turnstiles, the congestion had grown so severe that there was a perceived risk to life. In 1987, when congestion arose at the same turnstiles due to supporters arriving late, SYP decided to delay kick-off. Duckenfield, however, decided against this course of action even though it was requested by PC Buxton, who believed a delayed kick-off would immediately reduce the pressure.

 

At 2:47pm a request was made to open an exit gate. Five minutes later, Duckenfield agreed to open the gate. SYP later argued that although they had five minutes to sort how the influx of fans would be absorbed, they did not do so because they could not have foreseen the outcome.

Several witnesses refute this and testified that warnings were given to officers wanting to open the gates. One officer was reportedly told by a steward, “No way! There’ll be a crush in there!’’ Turnstile attendant, Colin Milton, said the officer ignored the steward’s warning.

Another SWFC steward, Jack Stone, who had been asked four times for the keys to open Exit Gate A, but refused each time, said in his own statement, “I knew all hell would be let loose if the gates were opened.”

Gate C was opened and, for five minutes, there was an influx of 2,000 supporters into the stadium. Undoubtedly opening the gate relieved the pressure outside but, with no directive to do otherwise, the majority of supporters headed for the tunnel leading to the central pens.

Lord Justice Taylor said the decision to open the gate, with no attempt to steer fans to the emptier wing pens, was “a blunder of the first magnitude.”

 

The Notion Of Inrushing Supporters

It is a commonly-held belief that the thousands of Liverpool supporters who entered via Gate C then rushed into the back of the already-overfull central pens, with the effect that those supporters at the front were crushed to death (the BBC’s Politics Show on 2/12/07 contains the latest example of this supposition. The BBC has since had to apologise for this, as there was never any evidence to support the view expressed).CCTV evidence clearly showed supporters entering via Gate C walking across the concourse and into the tunnel. Taylor revealed that, of those who died

near the front of the pens, “at least 16 and probably 21” came through Gate C after it had been opened at 2:52pm.It was estimated that, with the addition of supporters from Gate C, there were

more than 3,000 fans in the central pens, almost double the official capacity.

 

If nothing else, some of the posts on here show why it is so important to some people why there needs to be a full and thorough disclosure of what went on.

[P J]

Presume the film of the fans surging INTO the Stadium through the opened gate, was doctored then PJ; and they were all actually in local pubs, peacefully watching the game on TV?!

 

The film of the fans entering through Gate C clearly shows them walking, not charging, running or even trotting into the ground. There were 2 other cctv tapes but unfortunately these were "stolen" from the locked police control room a short time after the disaster, a crime which was never solved.

[wolfie]

"However, analysis of the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive analysis and eyewitness accounts showed that the total number of people who had already entered the Leppings Lane End was far below the capacity of the stand."

 

 

 

"gave the order to open gates so that hundreds of fans could be herded on to the already crowded terraces at the Hillsborough stadium."

 

Which one is correct then?

 

No idea Eagle, and in truth I suspect nobody else knows either.

[observer]

You must have been watching another film PJ; the archive film shown on the news report last week, clearly showed "the crowd" bursting (surging, running) INTO the ground as the gates were opened - nothing remotely orderly about it.