Peter T Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 So that is what our former leaders think of us eh? Surely Michael wasn't like that???? :shock: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 Surely Michael wasn't like that???? :shock: even his own people didn't like him!.... that's why he had to go it alone!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted December 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 Well, while you ladies have been trying to shoot the messenger, rather than debate the message; seems our Deputy PM has been considering the message, and has announced a curb on executive pay. Whether this will prove to be just rhetoric or reality, remains to be seen; but at least someone can see the wood from the trees! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 And since when has it been any business of the government, in a so called democracy, to interfere in the legitimate business of private companies? :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted December 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 Thought, in a Democracy, the people elect "the Government", the Government legislates, and then everyone (including "buisiness"); is required to comply with the law? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 If you bothered to read my post I said "legitimate business". As far as private business goes it is not up to the government to set the rates of pay, it's up to the owners and shareholders to apportion their profits as they see fit. I know your mindset is to nationalise everything but remember how well that worked in the Soviet Union? Even China has gone for private enterprise. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted December 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 Hate to be pedantic Asp; but if a Gov passes legislation, they make it their "legitmate" buisiness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 And in doing so trigger a mass exodus of businesses from the country. Don't think even this government is that naive :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted December 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 Won't be the Companies that move necessarilly; just the greedy execs (some of whom, have been complete failiures - EG TSB) yet still feel entitled to a bonus. Aside from no one being worth the obscene pay levels they've now reached, no one is indispensible either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Talking through your hat as usual Obs. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted December 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Come on Skipper, surely you can do better than that?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fugtifino Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 And in doing so trigger a mass exodus of businesses from the country Ah, the old "if we don't pay them enough all the talent will scarper" argument. I think it's baloney myself, but why do proponents of this approach never apply the same criteria to those in the public sector? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted December 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Carefull fughs, you'll be accused of "talking through your hat". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 And in doing so trigger a mass exodus of businesses from the country Ah, the old "if we don't pay them enough all the talent will scarper" argument. I think it's baloney myself, but why do proponents of this approach never apply the same criteria to those in the public sector? The difference is that in the case of the public sector it is, acually, us (ie the taxpayers) who are paying the wages. Whereas in the case of the private sector it is the shareholders/owners paying the wages. We can choose to buy our goods from whichever private sector business we want, or not as the case may be. We can choose to pay our taxes or go to prison. No contest I would have thought. As for all the "talent" in the public sector scarpering, who would have them? And if there actually is a market for their "talents" why haven't they all scarpered to the riches to be had elsewhere instead of staying here and being so sorely exploited by the wicked Tories? <_< <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Come on Skipper, surely you can do better than that?! I'm Master of a ship, not captain of a darts team :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fugtifino Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 The difference is that in the case of the public sector it is, acually, us (ie the taxpayers) who are paying the wages. But your principle of "if you want the best you've got to pay" stays the same, doesn't it? There are some really good teachers out there y'know. As for the talent in the private sector, are these the same ones who screwed the economy? Let 'em walk I say. Like wolfie (I think) said, I'm not with this public vs private either, this fella explains it pretty well: http://timharford.com/2011/12/you%E2%80%99re-wrong-%E2%80%93-we-are-all-wealth-creators/ When we've got this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/05/income-inequality-growing-faster-uk as well as this: http://www.macmillan.org.uk/Aboutus/News/Latest_News/DWPproposestoforcechemotherapypatientstoundergostressfulbenefitchecks.aspx it's not just about economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Very interesting articles fugtifino, and interesting arguments from Tim Harford. Doesn't come anywhere near to explaining why private businesses shouldn't pay their employees whatever the owners/shareholders want to pay them without government interference (minimum wage constraints being taken into account). If you were to read my previous post properly you would realise I was talking about "talent" in the public sector. It's always the "high flyers" in the public sector who say they deserve high rates of pay to stop them going to work for private business, not the other way round. As someone who works for a private business, and one exposed to international competition, I am subject to, up to now, a 3 year pay freeze coupled with ever increasing taxes and prices. Don't expect me to help people who are reluctant to help themselves. <_< <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted December 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Just trying to visualise a time when I'd desperately require the services of an investment (gambler) banker, CEO of a major Company, pop singer or footballer etc; can readily imagine the need for a public service worker though - Surgeons, nurses, police, fire, ambulance, social services etc etc; without which the fabric of our fragile society would collapse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Well if nobody wanted the services of the banker, the CEO, the pop singer or the footballer they wouldn't exist would they? So your argument collapses in a heap yet again :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fugtifino Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Doesn't come anywhere near to explaining why private businesses shouldn't pay their employees whatever the owners/shareholders want to pay them without government interference Well, that isn’t the question the article was addressing, but, seeing as you’re asking, I’d say that it destabilises the economy, and that obs is right to talk about legislation. I’ve worked in the private sector, my wife does now, and it’s not the likes of me, her or you (with your 3 year pay freeze) when HMG talks about capping wages, it’s those at the very top of the tree. It’s the ones referred to in that Guardian piece about income inequality growing faster in the UK than anywhere else which, if left to run its course unchecked, will mean we’ll all end up back in the days of serfdom. Of course, you may be happy with that because that’s what the markets decreed. This income inequality is having its effects already: I’m sure there will be some who will be happy with this ‘cos “they don’t know they’re born”, but I’d always hoped my kid/s would have a better standard of living than me: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/dec/03/britons-children-lives-parents-poll It's always the "high flyers" in the public sector who say they deserve high rates of pay to stop them going to work for private business, not the other way round. Is it? I’d say that that particular logic is usually used to justify retaining the muppets who got us in to this mess in the first place. Maybe I was too subtle earlier, but what I was getting at with the last two links in my last post was that if I/we are all in this together and have to stump up more cash one way or the other, then I’d rather that was spent on not having to have cancer sufferers prove they’re too ill to work, than propping up the banking industry: imo, there are some things that the markets shouldn’t be left to decide. Don't expect me to help people who are reluctant to help themselves. Well, all the “talented” bankers helped themselves freely to obscene amounts of salaries, bonuses and pensions, and for which we’re now all paying. Other than doggedly defending an ideology, I can’t see why you’d be so keen to support them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 If you were to look back at what I was saying when the government was busy throwing our money at the failing banks, it was that we should have just left them to market forces to sort out.Sure it may have been painful, but not as painful as what is happening now, and your greedy bankers wouldn't have been given taxpayers' money to pay themselves the high salaries that you are always moaning about. Sure I would love to have a larger slice of the cake but I'm a realist and know that capping the salaries of the top men is not going to gain me an extra penny. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted December 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 "The Market" doesn't have a moral compasss Asp; if Osbourne had quoted the mantra of "the market", it would have been "every man for himself"; and we could settle down to enjoy consequential anarchy and mass criminality. But Osbourne didn't say that, he said "we're all in it together", and on that basis (assuming it's not just rhetoric), fairness can be imposed, hence Nick Clegg's recent comments. It only remains to debate the most effective way of imposing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fugtifino Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 capping the salaries of the top men is not going to gain me an extra penny Ooh, I dunno asp, might find it's a bit more than that if you crunch the numbers: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/12/income-inequality-oecd-risen And, wot obs sed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 What short memories you lot have. Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling (remember those 2 financial genius's?) were the ones who started chucking our money down the failing banks' black hole. <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 capping the salaries of the top men is not going to gain me an extra penny Ooh, I dunno asp, might find it's a bit more than that if you crunch the numbers: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/12/income-inequality-oecd-risen And, wot obs sed. Nice article, very interesting comments too. It didn't say that capping top salaries will give me any more.Less tax definitely would though. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.