Bill Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 How on earth would the residents of that area know who was using the road as a rat run and who were just on their way home? Same logic applies to you Geoff, unless you recognised all the cars involved and were sure they didn’t live in the area you have nothing but an assumption. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 I would like Geoff to define what he sees as a "Rat-Run".... I drive.... I drive a lot and I always try to take the shortest route as it is more environmentally friendly and saves little squirrels and birdies from too much CO2..... that aside, I also pass through housing estates on my way home. Like today.... working in Longbarn; live in Westbrook. Longbarn, down Greenwood Crescent, onto Poplars, turn into Cleveland, straight onto Sandy Lane West and across the roundabout at the junction with calver road to go straight down Cromwell Avenue to Asda and so to Westbrook. Totally legal; (I am one of the few cars that sticks to the 20 limit too I hasten to add)Shortest route and quickest too; otherwise it is sit in traffic at roadworks and traffic lights with the engine running and so killing little birdies.... What is a rat run??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Modifying the Wikipedia definition: Rat running or cut-through driving refers to the use of secondary roads or residential side streets instead of the intended main roads in urban or suburban areas in order to avoid heavy traffic, lengthy traffic signals, or other obstacles lengthening a journey, even though traffic calming measures may be in place to discourage them and there may be laws against taking certain routes. Rat runs are frequently taken by motorists who are familiar with the local geography. They will often take such short cuts to avoid busy main roads and junctions (intersections), road works etc. The associations with "beating the crowd", the rush hour, and the rat race may have given rise to the term, or perhaps similarities were observed between the patterns of rat running driving routes and a rat running a maze. Rat running is controversial. It is sometimes opposed by homeowners on the affected streets, as it is regarded by some people to be a disturbance of their peace; sometimes it affects house prices. Authorities often try to prevent it, but enforcement is difficult. Sometimes rat running is fought by installing traffic calming devices, including all-way stops, speed humps, traffic circles, and rumble strips, making some streets one way, or by blocking off certain intersections (junctions) or as in the Harpers Road proposal making it ‘access only’. Bazj – you journey today would have been ‘access only’ with your vivist to presumably install an alarm or other related work. On your journey home you will have driven down 20mph road with bump that are designed to reduce not only the speed of traffic but also to discourage traffic. So it is good to see that you have experienced some of the measures to discourage Rat Running. And Bill – didn’t you have Rat-run issues in you road at one time? It does beg the question who should have the say in rat runs - the motorists using them or the local residents suffering the consequences? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Geoff Over the years you’ve told us so many times that we should be using our cars less, and now you’re finally in a position to do something about it. So, all you need do now is to just carry on the same old policies that have created today’s problems but remember, you’re going to get it in the neck for all the gripes from the both residents and motorists. You do realise it’s a no win scenario and that the more through roads (rat runs) you try to close off, the busier the alternative becomes, thereby creating even more problems for the remaining routes which then demand they also need to be made access only. That’s exactly what happened in our area, there wasn’t a problem until the council put speed bumps on the only other two through roads between Woolston and Fearnhead. We need roads that work and allow us to get from a to b quickly and if we had that, there’d be no need for rat runs. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wahl Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 By this wikim definition. every road in this illustrious town is a rat run. There is no way anybody can drive into or out of town without obstruction. There is no way anybody can drive from Warrington to Birchwood without meeting any man made impediment to their journey. Even Baz J meets obstructions in Greenwood Crescent ( that are illegal as they are not properly illuminated or marked) In Cleveland (that are poorly marked) in Sandy Lane (mostly poorly parked cars) and Cromwell ( the traffic jam creating asda lights). Roads are for vehicular traffic and should not be managed according to whims of residents. If there are sufficient accident details then I am sure the efficient road safety at WBC will devise some means of managing traffic.n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grappenhall Guy Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Just going a little off topic,the police have been doing speed enforcement on Woolston Grange Avenue for some time now. I was caught doing a little over the limit but successfully argued that the ticket was issued unlawfully,the reason being that I had exited the M6 northbound at junction 21 and travelled on to Woolston Grange Ave,there are no 40 mph gateway signs at the end of the motorway slip road.The law does say all signs must be in place and clearly visible before any enforcement can take place. However if you enter Woolston Grange Ave via the A 57 either direction you do pass through gateway signs. The same applies if you leave the slip road on to A 57 towards Warrington speed limit unenforceable until you travel through the next gateway signs which I think are outside the Toyota garage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 By this wikim definition. every road in this illustrious town is a rat run. There is no way anybody can drive into or out of town without obstruction. There is no way anybody can drive from Warrington to Birchwood without meeting any man made impediment to their journey. Even Baz J meets obstructions in Greenwood Crescent ( that are illegal as they are not properly illuminated or marked) In Cleveland (that are poorly marked) in Sandy Lane (mostly poorly parked cars) and Cromwell ( the traffic jam creating asda lights). Roads are for vehicular traffic and should not be managed according to whims of residents. If there are sufficient accident details then I am sure the efficient road safety at WBC will devise some means of managing traffic.n Steady Wahl. that's a bit near the knuckle. You'll have the pedestrians and cyclists crying next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Modifying the Wikipedia definition: Bazj – your journey today would have been ‘access only’ with your viist to presumably install an alarm or other related work. On your journey home you will have driven down 20mph road with bumps that are designed to reduce not only the speed of traffic but also to discourage traffic. So it is good to see that you have experienced some of the measures to discourage Rat Running. And Bill – didn’t you have Rat-run issues in you road at one time? It does beg the question who should have the say in rat runs - the motorists using them or the local residents suffering the consequences? Geoff....are you saying that if I am working in longbarn but live in Westbrook I am allowed to drive through the estates as I am going to work.... but on the way back I can't??? What kind of fuddled thinking is that??? I was working in Longbarn, but not alarm installations.... I took the route which was the most convenient for me to get from a - b and so avoiding the monstrous cock-ups that you and your fellow councillors have been inflicting on this town for the past 20 years.... As has been said, the more you block off roads; the more you send traffic to the over loaded arterial routes and that will lead to total gridlock of the town.... We will have enough to cope with when the new toll bridge gets built and every man and his dog takes a short cut through Warrington to avoid the tolls.... or are you and your compadres going to stand at the top of the motorway slip roads with a big sign saying "Warrington is not a rat run" ? As I have said previously..... I pay a huge amount of money to run my cars and I obey all of the traffic laws (where I can of course) and I do not speed (I even stick to Rods 20's nonsense speed limits unlike a lot of drivers including council vehicles I hasten to add...., and do not run down access only roads..... even Hilden Road, it is perfectly legal for me to drive there.... If you wish to call it a rat run then so be it...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Geoff....are you saying that if I am working in longbarn but live in Westbrook I am allowed to drive through the estates as I am going to work.... but on the way back I can't??? What kind of fuddled thinking is that??? I was working in Longbarn, but not alarm installations.... I took the route which was the most convenient for me to get from a - b and so avoiding the monstrous cock-ups that you and your fellow councillors have been inflicting on this town for the past 20 years.... As has been said, the more you block off roads; the more you send traffic to the over loaded arterial routes and that will lead to total gridlock of the town.... We will have enough to cope with when the new toll bridge gets built and every man and his dog takes a short cut through Warrington to avoid the tolls.... or are you and your compadres going to stand at the top of the motorway slip roads with a big sign saying "Warrington is not a rat run" ? As I have said previously..... I pay a huge amount of money to run my cars and I obey all of the traffic laws (where I can of course) and I do not speed (I even stick to Rods 20's nonsense speed limits unlike a lot of drivers including council vehicles I hasten to add...., and do not run down access only roads..... even Hilden Road, it is perfectly legal for me to drive there.... If you wish to call it a rat run then so be it...... Hi Bazj - I was only saying that if Harpers Road was an access only road then driving down it to get to where you were going to work was ok. I don't think that any of the other roads you mentioned are access only with the exception of Hilden Road. This is now very difficult to enforce - one reason being that you could say if caught that you are going to the SPAR shop. However as you point out for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and as more and more cars hit the road the problem gets worse. How anyone would ever dream of using Warrington as a 'Rat Run' escapes me unless they have an hour or two to waste, especially when Thelwall Viaduct cloggs with the usual accidents up or the swing bridges are raised to allow the freight through? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Then imagine the perfect storm scenario...... We have a toll bridge in Halton..... The swing bridge gets stuck open..... There is a crash on the M6 (north or south bound; it doesn't matter) all the traffic does and will run straight through Warrington. There was a crash last week between 20 & 21a and within minutes, the slip road from the M62 at Winwick was backed up by over 1/2 mile from cars that had come off the M6 south and were looking for an alternate route..... Surely instead of trying to restrict traffic we should be catering for it? Halton has a fantastic road network with big free-flowing dual carriageways and 50, 60 or 70 mph limits to get traffic off and out of the place as soon as possible.... What do we have? Narrow streets, restricted speed limits on main arterial dual carriageways like Winwick Road.... The Labour mob have been in charge of this town for decades (apart from a few years of the Liberal alliance) and have done nothing but made matters worse. We need a proper ring road around the town and we need to stop putting traffic lights everywhere that hold up traffic while letting one or two cars out at junctions.... In spite of what some of the eco-warriors on this forum may have us believe, cars, trucks, vans etc. have a vital role to play in our economy and it is about time this town started to acknowledge this and make travelling by car a little easier around the town Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wahl Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 As I recollect, when the second bridge was being constructed at Thelwall, there was a pathetic attempt from a councillor whose name I forget to evaluate and set up a fast through route . This fizzled out like a damp squib. More money has been spent on constructing cycle paths that are mostly unused as it appears this is easier to do than provide a safe, well managed road network similar to Widnes, Runcorn etc. The WBC could not even determine an alternative route to avoid the Bridgefoot area, though I believe there is another attempt to resuscitate a road fromChester Road through to Penketh. No doubt there will be objections from wildlife, conservation, local residents objecting to traffic and probable breaching of human rights . The poor management of traffic in and around Warrington will undoubtedly cause much concern in the future. Perhaps WBC should forget all about cycle lanes, footpaths and walking to work, thus removing the need for such an activity and therefore save lots of money that can be spent on more policemen who could actually do some good and not sit around waiting for vehicles exceeding nonsense speed limits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I thought that they created cycle paths because they get a grant from Europe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wahl Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 ''Yes Peter T the grant was for cyclepaths, there has also been funding from certain companies and developers for cycle and pedestrian paths. Unfortunately, no one actually asked the cyclists and pedestrians who may have used such paths if the paths were actually neededand if they would use them. It appears to be merely an excuse to use the money to create an impression.. Also these paths were expanded to affect the road network with additional traffic lights to allow the pedestrians to cross busy main roads,as well as the proliferation of white lines and green boxes in dangerous positions on the roads that give an erroneous feeling of safety for cyclists although they were being led into danger. The green box at the roundabout on Sankey Way / Liverpool road, the box on a bend at Colledge roundabout, the lines and other graffitti on the road at Hilden roundabout are such examples of dangerous practices by wbc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wahl Posted November 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 ANGRY residents are demanding a face-to-face meeting with Home Office officials over a controversial travel plan at Longbarn, Warrington. Residents have already held two meetings with local councillors, council officers and the police to review progress on the construction of new crossing on Harpers Road and Woolston Grange Avenue. The travel plan is designed to discourage office workers at the Olympic Park employment site from using cars to travel to work. A new Home Office training centre is due to open on the site and nearby residents fear office workers will park outside their homes if the travel plan is unsuccessful. Cllr Geoff Settle (pictured), who represents the area on Warrington Borough Council, said: "Back in 2006 planning permission was granted for the construction of the offices. Few if any of the local residents knew anything about it. They were left out of the decision making process." Residents want the Home Office to send a representative to a further residents' meeting to outline how they will make their travel plan work. Cllr Graham Friend, who also represents the area on the borough council, said: "I only learned about the new crossings when a notice on a lamppost was pointed out to me. Surely there is a better way to inform people about such developments, especially when it has such a potential impact?" Nominated residents have been invited to attend a walkabout with officers and councillors so that they can highlight their areas of concern and discuss how these can be minimised. Details of when the walkabout and next meeting are to take place will be announced shortly. Cllr Friend added: "During our street surgeries over the last three weeks residents have pointed out issues and we have been able to get some of them resolved, like an extension to the pavement from Blackburne Close to the bus stop and a drop curb for disabled residents in Freshfield Avenue. Hopefully the walkabout will result in other measures to allay other concerns". Looks like a bag of worms Who authorised the building of an office without proper car parking? Why was this issue not brought to light before the roadworks? Why is the site licence not revoked as it is obvious the use of the building damages the environment and well being of the neighbourhood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 When it was announced that another large business was to be built on an existing industrial estate served by a main feeder road, the people on the nearby residential estate would have rightly assumed it wouldn’t affect them. But by deliberately providing extremely limited parking, the council has created a recipe for disaster but to then add a pedestrian crossing between this and the residential area, they’ve just made an already bad situation worse. I’m not surprised they didn’t inform the residents of their plans from the outset but this latest fiasco of forgetting to tell them about the crossing beggars belief. The whole planning department should be sacked and shipped off to some distant place where they can play their silly games. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 Wahl wrote: Looks like a bag of worms Who authorised the building of an office without proper car parking? Whoever was on the planning committee back then - but - as far as car parking goes applicants are only permitted to build so many in accordance with local and national planning guidlines. Why was this issue not brought to light before the roadworks? It was by residents as soon as they saw the planning application posted on the lammppost. Why is the site licence not revoked as it is obvious the use of the building damages the environment and well being of the neighbourhood Technically nothing has been breached all works were given the go ahead by a planning committee - with the S106 agreement for the builder to pay for the crossings in accordance with the travel plan - and they have kept to the approved plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 'Whoever was on the planning committee back then' presumably took the advice of the more 'knowleagable' planning officers too Geoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Technically nothing has been breached That’s a total crock as well you know. What your really saying there is that there’s nothing anyone can do about it now because over time they’ve ticked all the necessary boxes. I put it to you that if the council had been completely honest with the people from the outset then this planning experiment would probably have never have got off the ground. Councillor’s like you should be representing the wishes of the people, not hiding behind pathetic legal and procedural excuses for their own silly plans. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agamemnon1 Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Well said Bill. To much quoting and not enough action seems to be the limit of some councillors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 There's plenty of action.... there's litter collecting and butterfly counting.... doesn't that count?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 'Whoever was on the planning committee back then' presumably took the advice of the more 'knowleagable' planning officers too Geoff. Bit like the Scrutiny committee, made up of people with myopic deficiencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agamemnon1 Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Sorry Baz J. How i managed to overlook the importance of litter picking/photo opportunity and butterfly counting ( seasonal )i dont know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 That’s a total crock as well you know. What your really saying there is that there’s nothing anyone can do about it now because over time they’ve ticked all the necessary boxes. I put it to you that if the council had been completely honest with the people from the outset then this planning experiment would probably have never have got off the ground. Councillor’s like you should be representing the wishes of the people, not hiding behind pathetic legal and procedural excuses for their own silly plans. Bill I did speak to one of the Councillors, who was on the committee last night, after scrutiny and he made an interesting remark to the effect that they did try to find out more.....it would probably cost me too much to say any more as it may well be interpreted every which way but lose and then again it might not be if I could get a good legal beaver who can cover my backside. Unless Bill in his wisdom can turn back the clock and who knows he may have built a time machine we have to proceed the way we are doing is going to take a lot of blood sweat and tears and that goes with the job. As for litter picking that is going well and people have signed up - but there are so many people chucking litter around Warringtion that it could be a full time job - some people just like living in a scuffy environment and couldn't give a monkey's. Still at least they are getting caught now throwing away things they they shouldn't but that's another story just like the thug who goes around hitting people because he likes to - if he can't get within range then he just sends threats. At least his card is marked and he's banned from certain places so that people can go about their business in safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agamemnon1 Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Well said Geoffry. Whats it coming to when a guy cant walk the streets in safety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agamemnon1 Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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