Why the change?

[disgusted]

Fatshaft. WHY you should think that Lucy has a perverted mind is beyond comprehension.

Is it? Your comprehension skills need some work then, it seems pretty clear here:

 

You only have to look at the name he has chosen to post under to see what sort of a person he is!

Seems she thinks 'fatshaft' is rude in some way, specifically refering to my man parts, wouldn't you say? Why would she do that when it's (and has been stated here before) taken from a well known Wilson golf club?

 

Surely a bit of a perverted mind at work there, assuming the worst in people, just like the premise of this thread in fact which is essentially 'why is no-one as perfect as me and my kind'?

 

 

 

She is probably bewildered by a non de plume such as yours, as no doubt most are. Don't you have a proper name?

I think most would understand it immediately.

 

And why would I use my 'proper name' on a forum? It's virtually unheard of for people to do so, here is a bit unique in that many seem to use their real christian names, but regarding your point, I presume your surname is "T" is it?

 

 

 

 

What I find strange is the fact that you object to any comment about anti-social behaviour and keep saying that it is all in the minds of old folk.

Do I? Any comment? Just the ones that have no factual basis like this one. OP sees someone drop litter - 'oh my, people have no values nowadays'. So presumably it never happened years ago then?

 

Funny thing is Harry then comes along to point out that in the OP's era, a law specifically targetting littering had to be introduced. Now without actually having been there, you have to doubt the memories of the OP just a smidgen don't you? Seems people did litter in her day, so really it just turns the opening post into yet another 'young people nowadays rollyeyes rant', which essentially is what it is.

 

 

 

For someone who whinged about the state of Walton hall Golf course not being maintained properly, I am amazed that you readily accept today's shoddy standards in ALL departments.

All departments? Really? Tell me where we've covered ALL departments? As you say yourself, Walton Hall is a classic where I don't accept shoddy standards, rudeness is another, especially seen in today's customer service industry, funnily enough a classic example being at Walton Hall golf shop, run by a pro who is approching retirement, and her grumpy miserable older brother who is past retirement age who wouldn't know customer service if it was dancing around in front of them in bright neon lights. Hmmm, now I mention that, I am seeing a pattern, grumpy old men and women perhaps?

 

 

I note that you have a reluctance to answer questions as well. Are you Kije in disguise or maybe related?

Don't be so bloody ridiculous. Are you a grumpy old man? In fact, aren't you a moderator, so you already know full well I have no connection whatsoever with LtKlje, so why even put such a trolling post?

[Eagle]

A change of name to Wilson Fatshaft Titanium Driver would do nicely.

[Lucy]

OK - I don't need anyone to defend me I can do it myself.

First, the name Fatshaft meant nothing to me until a friend, who is not a member of the forum, expressed surprise that such a name would be allowed on the forum. Not being a golfer, I had never heard of the club which apparently bears its name. I suspect OUR Fatshaft intended a double-meaning anyway.

Now if OUR Fatshaft had responded by simply agreeing that the litter situation is terrible, but suggesting that it always had been, I don't think things would have reached the stage of a slanging match. But it would appear from his repeated refusal to accept that there is a problem, suggests that he accepts today's standards and that, in turn, suggests that he is one of the many who have caused the decline. I am surprised they allow him in a golf club! I repeat, how can someone who was not even born at the time know what conditions were like? How can he suggest I have memory failure. I am not alone in my generation in believing the litter situation and general standards of behaviour are worse now.

I am surprised that someone who appears to be a retired policeman (and recalls Happy Days) apparently thinks differently, but of course he would have had to deal the rough end of society all the time so probably has a false impression of what things were like. But having said that, I know plenty of ex-policemen who would not agree with him. I was talking to one the other day who said there were always fights in pubs, but they used to be fist fights while today they use broken bottles and glasses or even knives.

[disgusted]

Now if OUR Fatshaft had responded by simply agreeing that the litter situation is terrible, but suggesting that it always had been, I don't think things would have reached the stage of a slanging match. But it would appear from his repeated refusal to accept that there is a problem, suggests that he accepts today's standards and that, in turn, suggests that he is one of the many who have caused the decline.

Again your pomposity is much appreciated.

 

So my statement that I don't believe it is any worse than it has ever been, does notin your eyes equate to just what you suggest I should have done, ie. agree that it's bad and always has been? You're the one saying today is terrible. I don't, I think it's same old same old as far as littering goes.

 

I have not at any point on this thread said it isn't a problem, you seem to be wishing that for argument's sake, I wholly disagree with your premise that historically there was no problem, ie. thread title - Why the change?.

 

That was your argument, mine is I don't believe there has been. ie. there's a problem now, and judging from a policeman around at the time when the law was introduced, there was a problem then too.

 

What it does come across as, as I have said repeatedly is grumpy old (wo)man syndrome.

 

 

 

 

I am surprised they allow him in a golf club!

I was secretary of my golf club at the age of 23, I have just returned to Scotland and have been immediately asked back onto the committee as handicap secreatry. I am guessing that people who know me well - as opposed to you who know me not at all - think quite highly of me?

 

Further on the subject of golf, a number of players left my club last year to go to Lymm due to the (at the time) condition of the course, virtually all of them have returned because they found Lymm golf club to be highly unfriendly and unwelcoming, what does that say about YOUR neighbours?

 

 

I repeat, how can someone who was not even born at the time know what conditions were like?

I repeat, your view is contradicted in this very thread by your peers, and a law was even passed to combat this problem. It is fairly easy to surmise therefore that there was quite an issue way back then too.

 

 

How can he suggest I have memory failure. I am not alone in my generation in believing the litter situation and general standards of behaviour are worse now.

Are they actually though, or is it just your belief? I feel it is the latter.

 

 

I am surprised that someone who appears to be a retired policeman (and recalls Happy Days) apparently thinks differently, but of course he would have had to deal the rough end of society all the time so probably has a false impression of what things were like.

So Harry would have had to deal with the rough end of society all the time? So a tacit admission that such an 'underclass' existed even through your rose tinted specs?

 

Well perhaps in the considerably less mobile times of the 50s, you simply mixed less with people not of your considerably superior social status, whereas now you have to mix much more freely with the plebs, and hence have to get your hands dirty now and again?

[disgusted]

A change of name to Wilson Fatshaft Titanium Driver would do nicely.

I had one of the originals Eagle (no longer, I'm a Callaway guy now) and it was a Deep Red Fatshaft, perhaps that would upset offended of Lymm even more

 

Just for Lucy, here's a photo of my deep red weapon .......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[harry hayes]

It's all getting ridiculous. I stand closely by my first opinion.

Of course there is more litter these days, but for many reasons.

 

The poor( litter wise ) have always been with us and I think with schools doing a little bit by way of education, people are a shade more responsible.

 

The number of clean up workers seems to be less; people scrupulously cleaned up outside their own address. Offenders picking up litter was once a fairly common sight - now it's too dangerous. As i said before the Litter Act was introduced to deal with a specific problem. Bin sacks are now everywhere and their contents can get disturbed.

Complaints from householders living say 600 yards from a chip shop re chip papers in the garden were common. Now we have Mcdonalds and other fast food outlets. I did Grappenhall IM church garden for many years in the old days -don't tell me that wantonly disposing of rubbish is a new phenomenon.

 

Think we should all agree to differ.

 

Happy days

 

I

[Lt Kije]

The population is now larger, which would also make the problem more visable

[harry hayes]

Oh yes. think Wingy might be with me in this, if not in total. Scouring the hedgerows for empty (2d) bottles; (half?) ciggies and smoking them.

 

Happy days

[Bill]

Don't want to get into any arguments on this but the way I see it is that people with the benefit of age are generally in a better position to judge whether or not things are better or worse now than in the past. The younger generation will always think that they know better than their predecessors and any notion or suggestion that thing may have actually been better in the past is usually dismissed as a mental state brought on by age.

 

Course there was litter and crime back then, but the real question that nobody seems to be able to answer is "Have things got worse or better?" How can anyone truly asses the level of littering? As far as I understand, you can't really measure it so have to rely on the opinion of the public and as you can see from this debate, opinions vary wildly. I've just turned sixty and my memory is pretty good but that said, I honestly couldn't say if littering is worse now than it was back then. I do know that there's a lot more packaging these days and this may affect our perception. Drinks didn't come in cans but in bottles with a deposit and there was no such thing as fast food let alone polystyrene containers.

 

Over the years I've seen no end of stupid ideas being pushed as the solution to the problem but clearly none have had any lasting effect.

 

I honestly believe that there's only one real solution however it's the one that we seem to shy away from and that's a heavy fine. It seems to work well in places like the US and I'm sure they don't feel their rights have been infringed by laws like this. I'd love to hear Mary's take on this issue.

 

Bill

[disgusted]

I honestly believe that there's only one real solution however it's the one that we seem to shy away from and that's a heavy fine. It seems to work well in places like the US and I'm sure they don't feel their rights have been infringed by laws like this. I'd love to hear Mary's take on this issue.

 

Bill

Not just the US Bill, seems to me you go anywhere and it is cleaner than the UK. That said, since the introduction of wheely bins, I do think it's made a significant difference, with rubbish much harder to be disturbed, split bin bags etc.

[Peter T]

Fatshaft.

Get over yourself. You used to have a sense of humour. I know your not Kije, just that you are beginning to sound like him.

 

Your argumentive tones are so unnecessary. A question was asked and poster responded.

We ALL have individual views and just because some think things are worst today doesn't mean that it is grumpy op's commenting.

 

Of course things are worst today. It is logical given the increase in the population, the increase in take-aways and the decrease in street cleaning. Even Harry can't argue with that.

 

At the end of the day, even if proof was shown, you would still believe what you wanted.

[observer]

Is it the case, that Singapore is relatively litter free? So what are they doing that we arn't?

[Bill]

Things aren't ALL worse these days Peter unless you have an extremely short or selective memory. For sure we've lost some things that are irreplaceable and hard or impossible for today's younger generation to appreciate but overall I say things are better.

 

I've spent two lengthy periods living in the USA and the level of litter in both places was virtually nil. I know like anywhere in the world, the large inner cities can have issues but by and large the USA is extreemly clean in comparison with the UK. While we have boy scouts organising litter pickups and women's institutes providing tea and cakes for all the volunteers, the Americans just put up a signs saying how much you will be fined.

 

I'd guess that American kids from an early age have it drummed into them by their parents not to drop litter or else they're hit with a mega fine. Once they accept that fact, it becomes the norm and they don't litter. Here, if anyone speaks out against littering (including the authorities) you're more likely to get a mouth full for infringing their right to litter.

 

Two weeks back I was behind a car going up our road when a whole array of Mc Rubbish was thrown though window. Right I thought, this car can't make off because it's a cul-de-sac so this persons going to get a grumpy old mans lecture about littering.

 

You can imagine my surprise then when the car drove up to my house and parked right up my drive. So now I've got four lads probably in their mid twenties who didn't know me or where I lived and wanting to know what my problem was? Initially, they tried to lecture me about rights until they realized they were in a no win situation parked and well and truly blocked in on my property.

 

The offending rubbish was duly removed and they got my lecture about community sprit which is probably what the police here would have done. If this was America the driver would have probably been fined $1000 minimum, but then again if it was America then they'd have known that so it wouldn't have happened in the first place!

 

Bill

[disgusted]

Are you saying that there is less rubbish lying around these days than say twenty years ago?.

As you are so offended at me defending myself, I will answer this. 100% yes, and the reason - wheelie bins.

[Bill]

I doubt wheelie bins really do much to change the littering situation.

 

If you're thinking about bin sacks being ripped open by dogs well that was only the case for a relatively short period of time in bin evolution.

 

At least it was for us oldies but for you that was probably the beginning of time and the start of the age of enlightenment

 

 

 

Bill

[Lt Kije]

I know your not Kije, just that you are beginning to sound like him.

 

I think a explanation of your statement would be in order Peter

[Lucy]

Fatshaft says of me:

 

"Well perhaps in the considerably less mobile times of the 50s, you simply mixed less with people not of your considerably superior social status, whereas now you have to mix much more freely with the plebs, and hence have to get your hands dirty now and again?"

 

Never thought of that. Perhaps you are right!

 

But really, what has social status got to do with it?

 

The gentleman I spoke to in Bridge Street was just an ordinary working bloke (although retired, I imagine). It was his view of things that made me post, although as I am sure will know, I do feel strongly about litter and have spoken about it before.

 

But why should people of a lower social status litter more than others? Unless, of course, it is because they are of lower status because they are lazy, which is also the root cause of litter.

 

Wheelie bins have nothing to do with it. They are for household rubbish, not litter.

 

Of course I accept there will be more rubbish because of more takeaways and population growth. Those two developments have a lot more to answer for than litter and are a lot to do with why the "good old days" were better.

 

Standards of behaviour have not fallen overnight. They have been gradually falling since at least 1945 and probably earlier. So the Litter Act that keeps getting quoted was a bit late coming. And was there no law against littering before that?

 

Fatshaft, you have said one thing I agree with and which suggests you do recognise the problem. That is that it seems to be worse here than anywhere else. I too have noticed the streets are cleaner in most other countries.

 

Anyway, good luck at your golf club back in Scotland. And just remember, there is never a queue of people to be secretary. Which is another issue - people won't take on voluntary positions in clubs, etc, like they used to. Which is probably all tied up with the same issue as litter. Laziness and selfishness.

 

Perhaps we should be talking about how to solve these problems rather than worrying about whether things are worse today. I remain convinced they are - and I was there!

[harry hayes]

Couple of things on Lucy' last post.I think I said it was the spirtually poor who littered. I was brought up round Forster street and East avenue, poor by any standards( Quote"what has status got to do with it?" They were in the main taught "proper". I always found it was the "posher" people who dumped litter hving a lot more to dump than the average Charlie. There used to be tiny procession on Holmsfield field from Salisbury street and the like, in the late evening.

Two things were governing us locally in small matters, the old highway act and the Town police clauses act, both from the 1800s.

You couldn't deposit litter; mend your hand cart on the public highway'; pour noxious things down the drains;l Hang your washing acrosss the backs; beat a carpet outside specified hours. et al. They were a bit like the army catch all "conduct prejudicial to good order"

Think the New highways act was also 1959. The new Litter act imposed a condition that a person had to cause litter AND LEAVE it, so the PC couldn't do him if he picked it up, when asked. Think that is still the case.

 

It is Sunday, so here endeth the lesson.

 

Happy days

[Wingnut]

Transgressing a little but.........

Back in the 50's, Maggie Twaddles was judged on how often she donkey stoned her front step, and how white it was. The donkey stone was usually given in exchange by the ragman for a couple of old rags or bits of scrap metal. Put a foot on someones freshly scrubbed step and you were in for it.

 

The front step was like a Holy Shrine. You had to step over it to enter the house. Once you knocked on the door, You were greeeted by a wench with a face like a bulldog chewing a wasp. Her first words would be, yer'ed better come in then. (and that's being polite). Her last words would be, and mind me step. That's how particular on matters of cleanliness people were back then.

[algy]

Spot on, Wingy.

[Peter T]

I think the first instances of litter that I noticed, was the emptying of car ashtrays on public land and pub car parks.

People seem to forget the carrier bags blowing around everywhere and getting stuck in the hedgerows.

 

Walk up Bridge Street about 8.00 in the morning and see the rats around the litter waiting to be collected.

[Egbert]

Harry

That is interesting. If you are right, the Litter Act of 1959 seems to have been a relaxation of what preceded it. If a litter lout can avoid punishment by simply picking it up, it is small wonder there are few prosecutions.

I have always thought the law was ridiculous on this. Picking the litter up when you have been caught does not really lessen the offence.

[harry hayes]

Thanks Egbert. how I remember it was that say.people would buy a packet of fags and discard the cellophane or/ and the gold wrapping. They would claim it was blown out of their hands - hence "and leaves".

 

My last posting probably on this one. I recalled last night Blackpool south shore inthe late fifties. In the day-time you couldn't see sand for people, and in the evening you couldn't see the sand for litter.

 

Happy days

[disgusted]

The gentleman I spoke to in Bridge Street was just an ordinary working bloke (although retired, I imagine). It was his view of things that made me post, although as I am sure will know, I do feel strongly about litter and have spoken about it before.

So, another grumpy old git then?

 

 

But why should people of a lower social status litter more than others? Unless, of course, it is because they are of lower status because they are lazy, which is also the root cause of litter.

At least you have the grace (unconciously) of showing your inferred superiority. If only we were all as perfect as the lunching ladies of Lymm.

 

 

Wheelie bins have nothing to do with it. They are for household rubbish, not litter.

I see, so rubbish cannot become litter when it blows loose? Interesting theory, one with which I would counter - rubbish!

 

You see where I've really noticed the difference is in Aberdeen, I left here in the nineties, a time pre-wheelie, and back then bin bags were a curse, ripped open nightly by the flying rats, with the subsequent bomb site that would leave for everyone next morning.

 

Coming back now to a wheelie bin era is like night and day, perhaps you wouldn't notice it creeping up on you, but given a sizeable gap the difference is stunning.

 

Of course it could just be that we Scots are much cleaner and tidier than the Warringtonians, the evidence is right there in front of me, so it must be true, right?

 

 

Of course I accept there will be more rubbish because of more takeaways and population growth. Those two developments have a lot more to answer for than litter and are a lot to do with why the "good old days" were better.

 

Standards of behaviour have not fallen overnight. They have been gradually falling since at least 1945 and probably earlier. So the Litter Act that keeps getting quoted was a bit late coming. And was there no law against littering before that?

Aye, the good old days, those dreamy perfect days in the fifties where a litter law had to be enacted, or the seventies where we were bombarded nightly with a dirty old man in a raincoat and trilby prancing around some park spewing litter from his coat pockets, or the eighties and the proliferation of 'keep britain tidy' signs and adverts.

 

So right enough, obviously things were better then, whereas now you have schoolkids driving green policies and recycling, whereas in your day......well that's why we got to this stage isn't it?

 

 

You see, while I'm being somewhat facetious above, you seem to think that you were holier than though, when all evidence says otherwise.

 

Whether you like it or not, it's just another example of a kick at modern life/youngsters nowadays (? Grumpy Old Gits ?)

 

 

 

 

Perhaps we should be talking about how to solve these problems rather than worrying about whether things are worse today. I remain convinced they are - and I was there!

But perhaps not all there

[Peter T]

The ONLY "Grumpy" one is you Fatshaft.

Get a life. You are pontificating about years gone by that you know nothing about.

I see that you have finally got round to admitting that Warrington is a mess.

Quote:"Of course it could just be that we Scots are much cleaner and tidier than the Warringtonians, the evidence is right there in front of me, so it must be true, right? "

 

Why keep on about the young? It is your generation as adults who tend to go around leaving their litter.

And IF you have bought into this global warming stunt, then you have got problems.

 

Aberdeen the town of wealth. Mind you don't slip on an oil slick.