rodk Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Wow Dizzy Sorry about the spelling. Mine was just an update, but it seems to have got some reaction with all that SHOUTING!!! I was hoping for some comment on The Times campaign, or the Manchester City Council decision, but maybe that was too much to expect. I haven't seen much in conflicting statistics or facts and that is why so many people who are responsible for safety on our roads are implementing 20mph limits. The comment that some "idiots" will disobey the speed limit applies to any speed limit and is no excuse for setting an appropriate speed limit. And why do you say that 20mph speed limits are unenforceable? 20mph limits are just as enforceable as any other speed limit. Best regards Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 I believe 20mph speed limits are non-enforceable as both the Vehicle Construction Act and Road Traffic Act have a minimum threshold for calibration of a speedometer of 30mph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Wow Dizzy The comment that some "idiots" will disobey the speed limit applies to any speed limit and is no excuse for setting an appropriate speed limit. And why do you say that 20mph speed limits are unenforceable? 20mph limits are just as enforceable as any other speed limit. Best regards Rod Just shows how out of touch you are with the real world. IF the 30mph was enforced, there would be no need for 20mph. Spend a bit more time out and about and see what the traffic speeds are like. If the police can't enforce 30mph why would they enforce 20mph? (And with less police). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodk Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 I believe 20mph speed limits are non-enforceable as both the Vehicle Construction Act and Road Traffic Act have a minimum threshold for calibration of a speedometer of 30mph Wolfie And so why do the police publish the fact that they can issue FPNs for exceeding a 20mph limit? And how come people have already received FPNs and paid fines for exceeding 20mph limits? But you are perfectly entitled to your beliefs!!! Regards Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodk Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Peter T said :- Just shows how out of touch you are with the real world. IF the 30mph was enforced, there would be no need for 20mph. Spend a bit more time out and about and see what the traffic speeds are like. If the police can't enforce 30mph why would they enforce 20mph? (And with less police). I drive most days and find that most people do obey 30mph speed limits. A 30mph limit endorses driving at 30mph. On so many residential roads 30mph is not "fit for purpose". How much police enforce a limit is not something that should determine what the limit is. That goes for any speed limit. With regard to the "Real world" it is adopting 20mph limits as being appropriate for residential streets. That's why I posted the link to The Times campaign for 20mph limits. Best regards Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Wolfie And so why do the police publish the fact that they can issue FPNs for exceeding a 20mph limit? And how come people have already received FPNs and paid fines for exceeding 20mph limits? But you are perfectly entitled to your beliefs!!! Regards Rod Rod, which of the following is fact or fiction: The Association of Chief Police Officers says anyone breaching a 20mph limit by more than 5mph should be fined £60 and given three penalty points. Anyone exceeding it by more than 10mph should be taken to court, where drivers can be fined up to £250 Only 19 of Britain’s 47 forces are enforcing the reduced speed limits, however, and only three have prosecuted motorists for breaching them by more than 5mph. The statistics, obtained through a Freedom of Information request, show 4,896 fixed penalty fines were imposed in the past two years However, 4,027 of these were issued by City of London Police, which has only one 20mph zone on Tower Bridge You see if the above figures are correct (which I have no reason to doubt) then only a few hundred people have been fined for breaching a 20mph speed limit which isn't on Tower Bridge (Which was introduced to protect the bridge as well I believe!!) Northumbria Police said its guidelines instructed officers not to enforce speed limits below 30mph. Oxfordshire Council introduced the 20mph limits....Thames Valley Police has objected to the scheme because they don't have the manpower to enforce it. A spokesman said "Where we need the 20mph limits is around our schools. " A COUNCIL call for police to enforce Oxford’s 20mph speed limits has been rejected. A senior officer spoke out after Oxford City Council passed a motion urging Thames Valley Police to crack down on speeding drivers. Ch Insp Gill Wootton, of the roads policing department, said road layout changes such as chicanes should keep speeds down – and enforcement would only be used as a last resort. Merseyside Police....(obtained from a freedom of information request) Q. Do you as a police force enforce 20mph speed limits? A. Merseyside Police follow the ACPO guidance on enforcement of 20mph limits & zones Q. If you do, how do you enforce them? A. The Force does not use the Mobile Camera Vans for enforcement of 20mph limits Q. If you don't, why not? A. The Force does not routinely enforce 20mph limits or zones as the guidance to local authorities makes it clear that these limits & zones should be engineered in such a way as to make them self-enforcing Islington becomes first entire 20mph zone but police won't enforce it Devon Police - "Because 20mph restrictions must be self enforcing it should be understood and clearly explained to all stakeholders that police enforcement will be a low priority." and finally Dorset Police; the force that doesn't know how many 20mph zones are in their force area and when questioned further about enforcement came back with this gem.... "We understand that two potentially relevant tickets were recently issued but these matters are still being processed." (Dorset Police were asked 8 FOI questions on 20mph enforcement. They only answered 6 and according to the records, it took them 6 hours to compile the responses.... 6 hours!!!! No doubt 5 of those hours were on overtime, but no one has yet had the heart to do a FOI request to find out for sure!! ) So there you have it.... millions of pounds spent up and down the country to introduce a limit which the Police don't want to or can't enforce...... and where the vast majority of all tickets issued in 2011 for breaking the 20mph limit; were on Tower Bridge.... which must be the only place in the centre of London where a car can get above 5mph..... which is probably why it has speed cameras on! Even more regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Am I alone in thinking that this topic is becoming so pointless as to be irrelevant? :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Am I alone in thinking that this topic is becoming so pointless as to be irrelevant? :unsure: well it doesn't matter to you when you are floating up and down the coast for most of the year does it??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 When I'm home (and I do get time off for good behaviour) I do take note of the pig ignorance shown by both car drivers and cyclists towards pedestrians. And I do drive a car when I need to (hired) and cycle. If you lot who use the roads on a regular basis would only put your thinking heads on before you leave the house in the morning we wouldn't be having these petty disputes. Speed in town doesn't get anyone anywhere fast when it results in an accident causing long hold-ups sorting out the consequences. And everyone gets held up by the next set of red lights. Chill out people, you are all hoping to get through the day safely. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Wolfie And so why do the police publish the fact that they can issue FPNs for exceeding a 20mph limit? Because the fixed penalty covers speeds of upto 35mph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodk Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Baz has the benefit of being able to search the internet and confirm that Police actually can and do enforce 20mph speed limits. Thank you. Admittedly some forces could do more enforcement and I am pleased that in later implementations than those referenced the police are working with local authorities to support 20mph limits and maximise compliance. I have the benefit of having had a meeting in January with the key police officers leading ACPO on Traffic Policing and can comfirm that there was a high level of agreement between ACPO and 20's Plenty for Us. Key to this was the belief by both parties that a wide level of agency support and community engagement was appropriate and that where there were problems of compliance then this should be resolved by a range of methods including enforcement. What they and ourselves do not believe is that problems of compliance were solely a problem for the police. Education, community engagement, extra signage and other methods could all be used alongside enforcement. Here is an extract from an agreed report from the meeting :- Agreed principles which came from the meeting were :- That 20mph speed limits for residential streets and those with high levels vulnerable road users across an authority (Total 20) were beneficial to communities and the police. That Total 20 should include local Traffic Authority decisions to make appropriate exceptions. That Total 20 needed wide agency support, commitment and involvement for it to be transformed into a community commitment to lower speeds and to maximise compliance That the police should take supportive and pro-active role in Total 20 implementations which have those necessary wide-agency involvements with suitable warning to visiting motorists and should be prepared to provide appropriate enforcement in support of maximising compliance levels. On particular streets where levels of compliance may turn out to below acceptable levels then all agencies should work together at additional work which may increase that compliance. This may include extra signage, education, road markings as well as police enforcement. That 20mph speed limits need to be clearly signed with suitable engineering, which could amount from anything from a roundel painted on the road to traffic calming measure depending on the appropriate level of intervention. That ACPO recognise that the vast majority of the public will not wish to break the law and therefore clear road signs and measures should be in place to give the public every chance to comply. This all demonstrates both police support and the need to talk and discuss issues so that police, community, council, officers and all can work together to make our streets a better place to be. But I am still amused by no-one commenting on The Times supporting 20mph limits. Or is this best ignored because it would really be difficult for some people to accept that I am not the only one campaigning for 20mph limits. And don't worry, I am not going to list out all the authorities, councillors and agencies supporting 20mph limits because the list would be far too long. And Asperity, I agree. I tried to update the forum with some new information regarding The Times support which I thought was relevent, but some want to revert back to the old arguments. Its time that those who are against 20mph limits for residential roads to accept that they have lost the argument. 20mph limits for residential roads are coming to Warrington as they are the rest of the country. By all means lets work to make them as successful as possible and lets constructivley comment on how maximium compliance can be achieved. But there is not a lot of point in going over the same pre-decision arguments again. Let's all look forward to a future where 20's Plenty Wherever you May Live. Best regards Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Perhaps that is why the police are not responding to frightened residents and burglars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 does this topic have the record for being the longest running? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Baz has the benefit of being able to search the internet and confirm that Police actually can and do enforce 20mph speed limits. Thank you. Admittedly some forces could do more enforcement and I am pleased that in later implementations than those referenced the police are working with local authorities to support 20mph limits and maximise compliance. Thank you for your kind words Rod.... but as you can well see, the only 20mph limit which is routinely being enforced is the one on Tower Bridge... accounting for 90%+ of ALL prosecutions across the country for breaches of the 20 limit .....and which "Later implimentations" are you referring to Rod, as those I listed were correct up until at least the 18th November 2011....3 months ago!! Rod, are you also aware of the survey carried out by IAM (the UK's largest independent road safety charity) in August of last year in Portsmouth.... the first city to make all residential roads 20mph? The response was that residents want the 20 limits, but not the enforcement. With less than 25% wanting the blanket speed limit across all roads in built up areas as they felt it ran the risk of making drivers more likely to ignore the limits as they may feel there is no real need for them........ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 does this topic have the record for being the longest running? what else would you like to talk about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 does this topic have the record for being the longest running? Nah, I think that was Pink Ladies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodk Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Baz Well in Liverpool :- Merseyside Police Chief Inspector John Hogan, said: “The police welcome any reduction in speed which may drive down the number of people killed or seriously injured on our roads. These 20mph limits will assist us to make the roads of Merseyside a safer place and to deal positively with a small number of offenders who continue to drive with a complete disregard for others.” And in Lancashire they are using Community Road Watch to monitor speeds. The IAM poll was taken throughout the country and not Portsmouth. In fact in its original press release IAM referred to Southampton having 20mph limits rather than Portsmouth. I have the full results of the IAM survey rather than simply their press release. On the question of compliance these were the answers :- How should 20mph speed limits be designed to achieve maximim compliance :-[/b] With 20mph speed limit signs only, leaving it to the driver to comply and police to enforce. 40.9% With 20mph signs and safety cameras to deter drivers from travelling faster than 20mph. 20.2% A combination of measures including road humps and cameras. 21.2% Other 17.7% To my reckoning that over 80% in favour of cameras, bumps or police enforcement. Which would you like? With regard to :- In comparison to other road policing duties, what priority should be given to enforcing 20mph speed limits? 21.9% said high 43.4% said medium and only 30.1% said low You can view the complete results if you wish. I have uploaaded them to our website at :- http://www.20splentyforus.org.uk/documents/iam20mphpoll.pdf I think that the full poll results showed strong support for 20mph limits. And I presume your memory will tell you that we do not favour "blanket" 20mph speed limits and leave the exceptions to be decided by the local authority taking into full account the needs of vulnerable road users. There is no local authority in the UK implementing a "blanket" 20mph speed limit. Whilst Islington comes close, roads managed by Transport for London are excluded. Have a nice day. Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 But I am still amused by no-one commenting on The Times supporting 20mph limits. Or is this best ignored because it would really be difficult for some people to accept that I am not the only one campaigning for 20mph limits. And Asperity, I agree. I tried to update the forum with some new information regarding The Times support which I thought was relevent, but some want to revert back to the old arguments. Rod.... OK I googled as you subtly mentioned it again. I guess that is what we should have done so we knew what you were referring to Interesting stuff and I think I deserve a lollipop now for my efforts Here's a link to The Times 'Cities Fit for Cycling' Campaign and it's manifesto and ways you can support it. Interesting video on there too and the ghost bikes are very sad. The lengths some cyclists are going to with all their cctv video equipment on their bikes and helmets is understandable when you see what they have to face in the big cities. Scarey stuff http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/contact/ The AA support the Times Campaign (I think) http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3310313.ece Bit I'm not sure about Rod is that The Times Campaigh seems to be focusing on the dangers of busy main roads (arterial routes?) in cities rather than the small residential side roads and streets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodk Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Dizzy No need to Google. My original post showed both the link and the reference to point 6 of their manifesto. An update In its recent campaign The Times has launched an 8-point manifesto for making "Cities fit for Cycling". Point 6 is :- "20mph should become the default speed limit in residential areas where there are no cycle lanes." See http://www.thetimes....safety/contact/ I think that the use of the term "residential areas" is quite clear. Regards Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 It's the definition of a residential area that people are concerned about. I would also suggest that any targets set by the police are similar to a politicians. They are not met. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Dizzy No need to Google. My original post showed both the link and the reference to point 6 of their manifesto. I think that the use of the term "residential areas" is quite clear. Regards Rod Appologies Rod as I have just gone back a few pages and yes you did say that 3 days ago and I missed it and yes point 6 does indeed mention 'residential' on a second read No lollipop for me then My errors must be as aresult of all the car fumes I've had to breathe in whilst driving through town between 7.30am and 8.30am three days this week and also late afternoon. Clearly my immune system is not used to it as I've not actually used my car for over 2 weeks you will be pleased to know (I've not cycled or used a bus either though but I have walked) What I have noticed these past few days is that the weather or fumes seems to have also affected the brain cells of more idiotic pedestrians. Why on earth do they just run across main roads CAN THEY NOT SEE ME ??... and why don't they just wait or use the crossings !! FOUR did it this morning and one had a kiddie in tow too so what is that teaching their kids Anyway I'm rambling so time for another pleasant stroll in the cold to clear my head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 You know what used to amaze me back in the uk Dizzy? People running across a road with oncoming traffic when just a yard or less away was a zebra-crossing! Now here in Egypt they have zebra-crossings in the cities but you can stand there all day to cross the road - nobody is going to stop th let you. Then again, here, there are no rules of the road. It's every man for himself. And an awful lot of cars being driven around with impact dents in them! It's mad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I noticed in Italy that zebra crossings are used as handy places to park! No zig-zags for the Italians!! :shock: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianR Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I also have issue with the term residential roads. Why is there not a map produced by the pro 20 campaign showing Warringtons roads that they propose would be 20mph? Just thought of a few examples. A49 between Jnc9 M62 and next roundabout southbound (Fordton). One house on Northbound side and a few on the southbound side. No cycle lanes that I can recall (unused bus lane southbound near the island). Is this residential? If so do 20'sP expect a major aterial route to be 20mph? 20 acre road. No houses or cycle lanes. Exempt or residential? Cromwell From Asda to the railway. Cycle lanes on the pavement, no houses. Schools adjacent but aagain main aterial route. Residential or exempt? How about when Warrington meets another local authority area. Do 20'sP expect the national speed limit of 60mph to drop suddenly to 20mph? Ive said all along that i have no issue with proper residential roads being 20mph but there should be exceptions: A or B classified roads (classified as such because they are important routes) Roads served by bus routes. (why slow them down contrary to LTP which encourages bus use) Any other strategic route (police or others can advise) Any impractical road (e.g. a short road between non 20mph routes) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I still believe that transport and highways planners have no idea of the environmental impact of 20 mph speed limits, and the inevitable increase in CO2 emissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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