Blitz Street.

[observer]

Tony Robinson's doing a series on Ch4; analizing the physical effects of the Blitz on buildings and people - which occured when the German's made the strategic error of bombing London rather than RAF airfields etc. The intent became to lower the morale of the civilian population, which through the stoical endurance of the UK population of the time, failed to work - noticed there were no flowers or teddy bears at the roadside then!

[Sue Durnim]

'noticed there were no flowers or teddy bears at the roadside then'

 

That's probaly because every conceivable piece of land was ment to provide food and every kind of material to provide uniforms, parachutes and skins for aircraft etc. Not a great fan of this modern trend of flowers by the roadside, that has probably come from Greece?

[observer]

Not quite Sue: folk them days just had to endure and overcome; no time for all this public wailing. Think the "shrine culture" goes back to the days of cavemen actually. Anyway, back to Tony Robinson's prog: he's been assessing the effects of a 250k and 500k bombs on a typical terraced street of the period, but he'll be going on to look at larger explosive charges, up to the V2. One interesting fact; an eye witness talked of a bus full of passengers - all dead - all still sat in their seats, not a mark on them: seems the the blast wave sucks all the air out of the lungs - which is how many of our IED casualties are being killed in Afghanistan.

[Sue Durnim]

One interesting fact; an eye witness talked of a bus full of passengers - all dead - all still sat in their seats, not a mark on them: seems the the blast wave sucks all the air out of the lungs - which is how many of our IED casualties are being killed in Afghanistan.

 

Observer, that is amazing information, just goes to show that soldiers/citizens are more at risk than first thought and that you can not be too far away from potential harm or death.

[observer]

On the first night of "the Blitz", there were 400 dead and 1,600 serious casualties - which sounds surprisingly low to me. However, RAF Bomber Command returned the favour later in the war, tenfold. As Air Marshal "Bomber" Harris said; "they sowed the wind, now they'll reap the whirlwind". An RAF raid on Hamburg, created a firestorm, which literally sucked all the oxygen from the city centre. It's frankly amazing what that generation could endure.

[Mary]

In all civilizations when food, water and shelter are easily come by people are freed up to indulge themselves. You cannot compare us today from 1942. But that does not mean if some disaster happened that people would not be just as courageous as then.

 

That is once they get over the shock!

[observer]

You may be right Mary, but looking around at some of the smug superficiality of today, I'm not so sure.

[Peter T]

I doubt it Mary. People these days have never suffered. The 40's war wasn't long after the First World War nor the Thirties recession.

 

The biggest inconvenience for most these days is queuein in a line of traffic.

[LymmParent]

That's a bit simplistic, Obs. Since the war, we've had nukes, germ warfare, the IRA, suicide bombers and AIDS. Not as delimited periods of threat either, but as ongoing situations. Not to decry anything that went on during WWII in any way, but there's been no decade since free from that kind of fear.

[observer]

"nukes"? - thought they were dropped on the Japs? "germ warefare"? - do you mean the swine flu? "aids"? not exactly the black death! "IRA"? not exactly the blitz was it? - perhaps you should have added, "walking round Town on a Saturday night"?!

[LymmParent]

"nukes"? - thought they were dropped on the Japs? "germ warefare"? - do you mean the swine flu? "aids"? not exactly the black death! "IRA"? not exactly the blitz was it? - perhaps you should have added, "walking round Town on a Saturday night"?!

 

The first bombs were dropped on Japan, but it was the 60s when the proliferation of nukes had everyone thinking the planet was going to blow up shortly. By germ warfare, I meant anthrax and the like and I think you'll find AIDS accounts for more people than the Black Death ever did, not to mention being passed around through medical assistance. As for the IRA and our current crop of terrorists, they'd be a lot less scary if we had 20 minutes warning to get into the cellar, don't you think?

 

Of course, the fact that every generation since yours has routinely faced prolonged and insidious threat and gone about its business anyway doesn't sit well with the philosophy that today's young people are spineless and spoiled, does it?

[observer]

Well YOU said it: with that rather tepid list of hardships not rating comparison with WW2. Nukes: not used after 1945: Aids: not exactly wiped out 1 in 3 people yet, no mass graves etc: IRA: not exactly a nightly visitation like the Luftwaffe.

[Peter T]

I thought that we were discussing this country?

Aids is only as bad as you say, if you include Africa.

The worst disruption these days, is severe flooding or motorway crashes. (Not forgetting the Central Heating breaking down).

[observer]

You forgot the "ash cloud" Peter, and strikes, not to mention those Muslim chemists - all so terribly inconvenient!

[LymmParent]

So HIV/AIDS has to wipe out one in three before it compares in any way to the Blitz? Which I remind you, lasted 57 nights and killed an estimated 20000 civilians in London, 43000 in total. I really do find this belief that your generation holds the aces on suffering to be quite bizarre. At the end of 2008, there were an estimated 83000 people walking around with HIV, and more than a quarter of that number didn't know they were infected. Most were heterosexuals. Up to June that year, nearly 8000 new cases were confirmed, taking the number of confirmed cases in the UK to over 105,000. But you think that's nothing compared to the Germans bombing your granny's henhouse.... bizarre.

[Peter T]

The problem is LP, your a bit like a non-smoker criticising a smoker.

You have to have lived a few decades to be able to compare one situation with another.

My Granny didn't have a hen-house, but her Mother had a sweetshop in Wallasey that got bombed, if that counts.

PS. Chlamidia is doing a similar thing today, but not many seem bothered about it.

[observer]

Where did this "lasted 57 nights" come from LP? The Luftwaffe were bombing Britain for two or three years, until it ran out of planes! The one in three deaths reference, was a reference to the real level of hardship due to a plague (EG the Black Death), we could come forward a bit to the one in five death rate of the 1918 flu epidemic; don't think HIV comes anywhere near that scale of impact, especially as a proportion of an enlarged population - so tis you who are bizarely trying to compare situations that are widely incomparable.

[LymmParent]

The problem is LP, your a bit like a non-smoker criticising a smoker.

You have to have lived a few decades to be able to compare one situation with another.

My Granny didn't have a hen-house, but her Mother had a sweetshop in Wallasey that got bombed, if that counts.

PS. Chlamidia is doing a similar thing today, but not many seem bothered about it.

 

My mother and grandmother got blown across the room, Peter. All my great uncles went to war and not all of them came back. One of my closest friends is now over 80 and lost her entire family in Auschwitz bar her mother and sister. What were you doing?

 

I'm not ignorant and I am not drawing comparison between events in some sort of peculiar widdling contest. My point - made to Observer - was simply that when you are talking about living with threat and stress, almost every generation is in the same boat one way or another. And the Blitz, Obs, which you were talking about as an event within the War, lasted 57 nights.

 

As I said, I don't understand this attitude that people born in the forties have the monopoly on understanding suffering and every generation since is soft. Do you really think there's a difference between mothers in 1942 waving their sons off to war and mothers now waving their sons off to Afghanistan or Iraq? I think both are equally awful.

[Eagle]

JOHN FOGERTY Deja Vu (All Over Again)

 

 

Did you hear 'em talkin' 'bout it on the radio

Did you try to read the writing on the wall

Did that voice inside you say I've heard it all before

It's like Deja Vu all over again

 

Day by day I hear the voices rising

Started with a whisper like it did before

Day by day we count the dead and dying

Ship the bodies home while the networks all keep score

 

Did you hear 'em talkin' 'bout it on the radio

Could your eyes believe the writing on the wall

Did that voice inside you say I've heard it all before

It's like Deja Vu all over again

 

One by one I see the old ghosts rising

Stumblin' 'cross Big Muddy

Where the light gets dim

Day after day another Momma's crying

She's lost her precious child

To a war that has no end

 

Did you hear 'em talkin' 'bout it on the radio

Did you stop to read the writing at The Wall

Did that voice inside you say

I've seen this all before

It's like Deja Vu all over again

It's like Deja Vu all over again

[Dizzy]

Performed with Bruce Springsteen on the 'Vote for Change' tour back in 2004 if I remember correctly as part of the music worlds contribution in the USA to actually get people to vote but to vote against Bush etc in the presidential election campaign.

[Peter T]

So, what you are implying LP, is that someone who has lived through the last 10 decades or more is not qualified to make a judgement on those decades as to whether things have got easier or not.

As an example, the standard of living as now, compared with rationing in the 40's? OR the household mod cons OR doing physical work in a factory?

 

And as for your comment about soldiers, I trust it was tongue in cheek, as the army is optional these days, even in sunny Lymn.

[observer]

LP, the common usage of the term "blitz" refers to the Luftwaffe bombing of Britain during WW2, which lasted slightly longer than 57 days. The post-war baby boomers have inherited imo, the highest and safest standard of living ever known to human kind, they have gone on to spoil there kids and grand-kids, in a world where the biggest problem is not getting glassed on a Saturday night - all previous generations throughout history have had to suffer more hardships, either through war or pestilence - however, as they didn't know anything different, they probably didn't even note their own stoicism.