observer Posted August 14, 2009 Report Share Posted August 14, 2009 The US debate on Healthcare has now spilled over into our domestic politics, with David Cameron having to spin a line that our NHS is "safe" with them, despite utterances to the contrary by some of his "off message" mavericks. Wern't they the Party that tried to create an artificial "competition" within the NHS by the formation of the un-elected Quango Trusts, creating another layer of administrators to be paid for, and the idea that folk won't mind traveling the UK in search of specialist treatment? And arn't they the Party (rightly in the implications of the economic crisis), who are predicting enormous cuts in public spending and/or increases in taxation as a result of our budget deficit and the results of economic depression?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egbert Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Good question. But you might as well ask "Do you believe in any political party!" As someone who is currently having to seek specialist health care I have so far had to travel only as far as Liverpool (and in fact chose to do that rather than find it in Warrington) so really it is hardly "travelling the UK" Took about 25 minutes getting there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Another Conservative MEP, Roger Helmer, has now backed Daniel Hannan's stance. The two faces of the Tory party are now showing. What they believe in and what they want us to believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted August 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Seems the sheeps clothing has slipped to reveal a glimpse of the wolf?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 No I do not beleive the Tories They woiuld give us the American system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kennedy Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 No I do not beleive the Tories They woiuld give us the American system  Really. How do you come to that conclusion. What I am hoping that they will do is remove tiers of management, political targets and box ticking. They might like to also consider integrating the NHS with certain functions of social services departments.  Interestingly, I understand the best mass medical system in the world is the French one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted August 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 As with Education, the problem with the NHS is that it has been used as a political football by successive Governments, who keep trying to micro-manage it to produce the tick box targets that suit their propaganda purposes. What is needed imo; are two things: first it should be seperated from "political" control at the very top. Second, following a full public consultation and debate, the parameters of what we expect from it should be established and published in a mission statement for all to see: EG; Should the NHS provide IVF and other treatments for non-life threatening situations? As it stands, with better techniques and equipment, advances in drug production, the potential of medicine keeps expanding and with it, expenditure - so too our expectations of it. We are facing a period of austerity whether we like it or not (so don't believe otherwise from any politician), the question WE have to answer is: where in the sand do we draw the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Paul am I to beleive you or someone else in your party who is doing the rounds in America at the moment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 What is needed imo; are two things: first it should be seperated from "political" control at the very top. Â I agree that both the NHS and the education systems have been subject to too much idealogically driven dogma by both political parties, and that this caused massive waste and great impact on staff morale. Â But is removing the NHS and its HUGE budget from direct governmental control a realistic solution? We'd be creating the biggest and least accountable quango imaginable, giving it truely vast amounts of taxpayers money every year, and setting its priorities through some wooly and ill-defined process which I'm sure that its senior management would find easy to influence or, failing that, circumvent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kennedy Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Paul am I to beleive you or someone else in your party who is doing the rounds in America at the moment  That is a decision that you have to make. I can only tell you what I think and that I do not believe that the views of Mr Hannan are Conservative policy. It is worth noting that Mr Hannan was speaking in the US, and I'm sure that for somebody with an inflated ego (due to his anti Brown speech in the European Parliament....which unlike most Conservatives I was not impressed by ) saw it as an opportunity for self promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kennedy Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 which I'm sure that its senior management would find easy to influence or, failing that, circumvent. Â So maybe it's senior management who should be purged. The NHS is a very simple "business model" that has been made far too complicated with a bureaucracy it simply does not need nor can afford. Ignoring for a moment the great advance of medical science, there will be many who will say that the care and level of service was better in the NHS 40 years ago than it is today. So the question has to be asked, why is that and what has changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 which I'm sure that its senior management would find easy to influence or, failing that, circumvent. Â So maybe it's senior management who should be purged. Â Senior management in ANY large organisation will always seek to manipulate the goals and strategies of that organisation to align with their own agendas, make themselves look good, and maximise their own bonuses and promotion prospects. That's the nature of the beast, effective managers and adminitrators are highly motivated and ambitious. Politicians are no different, they're just a LITTLE bit more directly accountable. Â Companies have shareholders and customers who can take their investment or business elsewhere if they don't like what a management team is doing. Public monopoly quangos don't have any such checks and balances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kennedy Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Â Senior management in ANY large organisation will always seek to manipulate the goals and strategies of that organisation to align with their own agendas, make themselves look good, and maximise their own bonuses and promotion prospects. Â Ah, now I know where I went wrong in my former life as a senior manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Don't tell me you never sat in an appraisal where you were given the opportunity to have "input" in setting your own "goals" for the coming year, and been asked which KPI's you thought should be applied to you to best reflect your progress towards those goals????? Â I've lost count of the number of times I've watched management teams spend a whole year chasing one set of KPI's only to do a complete about face and chase another set of KPI's right back to their starting point the next. Â They're a necessary evil, but it doesn't pay to let them too far off the leash of financial reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 It isn't needed with good sound management. It's a modern system that wasn't necessary years ago, when folks knew what the job required and got on with it. Monitoring is something that needs doing all the time, not once a year. Another stupid idea like NVQ's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 As for the topic, a change of Government is desperately needed to sort out the mess that Brown has got us into over the last decade. And who more experienced than the Tories to sort out the mess yet again? The other option is pointless. We have a serious problem Houston, it needs sorting regardless how nasty the medicine is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 a change of Government is desperately needed to sort out the mess that Brown has got us into over the last decade. And who more experienced than the Tories to sort out the mess yet again? Â See, that's where we keep going wrong. We replace the Tories mess with Labour and we replace the Labour mess with Tories and so we go on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Â Senior management in ANY large organisation will always seek to manipulate the goals and strategies of that organisation to align with their own agendas, make themselves look good, and maximise their own bonuses and promotion prospects. Â Ah, now I know where I went wrong in my former life as a senior manager. Â So does that men that the reincarnated Paul will be bringing success to his new job and if so what are your KPIs that have been set by yor leader and will you be truthfully reflecting them when Tory boy has his annual appraisal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Â See, that's where we keep going wrong. We replace the Tories mess with Labour and we replace the Labour mess with Tories and so we go on. Â Chasing different KPI's right back to our starting point????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 a change of Government is desperately needed to sort out the mess that Brown has got us into over the last decade. And who more experienced than the Tories to sort out the mess yet again? Â See, that's where we keep going wrong. We replace the Tories mess with Labour and we replace the Labour mess with Tories and so we go on. True, but that's what stops it getting tooooo boring. What's the alternative? a dictatorship? we tried that with Bliar, is that what we want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted August 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Inky; perhaps one giant Quango would be better than the multiplicity of Quangos (Trusts) we now have; we need "professionals" to run organisations, not amateurs like politicians poking their noses in every five minutes for a sound bite. We leave warfare to the Generals, so let's leave medicine to the medics - based on a clear mission statement that we are prepared to fund. As for the other arguement between the frying pan (Labour) and the fire (Tories); it's a good indication of why we never get anything done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 Did your friend learn from his dabbling in Politics then or was it down to his total lack of professionalism?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 True, but that's what stops it getting tooooo boring. What's the alternative? a dictatorship? we tried that with Bliar, is that what we want? Â How about a Liberal mess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Settle Posted August 17, 2009 Report Share Posted August 17, 2009 That's a given nice to see a honest politician. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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