LymmParent Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 I was at LGS in the 70s too and the cane didn't deter anyone. It was used only on boys and frequently when offered the option of six strokes or a non-corporal punishment involving extra work or payment towards damages, boys would opt for the cane. Over in two minutes, forgotten in two hours. Best punishment I ever saw was John Bradbury's response to bullying. He took the senior boy responsible to the home of the younger boy to explain to his victim's parents exactly why he had bullied their son. Shaped my attitude to discipline, that did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfie Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 He took the senior boy responsible to the home of the younger boy to explain to his victim's parents exactly why he had bullied their son. That would now be classed as an assault. No teacher would ever do that these days. They are not even allowed to take an offending pupil to a 'cooler', they must ask the pupil to go there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 So LP, are you saying that discipline and manners and behaviour in schools has got better since the abolition of corporal punishment.... or worse??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 More to the point, LP, are you saying behaviour in society as a whole since the abolition of corporal punishment has got better...or worse. I fear you may be a product of liberal attitudes yourself to hold the views you do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egbert Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 I was at LGS in the 70s too and the cane didn't deter anyone. It was used only on boys and frequently when offered the option of six strokes or a non-corporal punishment involving extra work or payment towards damages, boys would opt for the cane. Over in two minutes, forgotten in two hours. Well the cane certainly deterred me when I was at school. I never got it - because I was scared to death of it. I did get a ruler on the knuckles a few times, which while apparently a lesser punishment, was pretty painful. But if the cane is forgotten in two hours, it wasn't applied heavily enough! But you are all talking about the 70s. Ye Gods, don't you realise the rot had set in by then. You have to go back to the 40s and 50s to find a disciplined society. In fact, I think things have been going downhill ever since the end of WW2! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Spare the rod and spoil the child. LP. When you ground them, do they have access to TV, PC, music and games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LymmParent Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 When grounded, the punishment is loss of freedom to socialise, because they have abused that freedom. The purpose is to make them think before they abuse it again. So they miss out on all their chosen social activities. They are not allowed to phone, text, email or chat online either, so they surrender their mobiles each evening and can only use the family PCs for homework - no laptops. Access to music and TV is not relevant to the point being made. I don't make them wear sackcloth and sit in the cellar either. It's a fair play consequence of their decision and the fact that they can see it is fair is what makes it work. "spare the rod and spoil the child" is from a poem. The Biblical quotation is "he that spareth the rod, hateth his son" and the meaning in context is that parents who don't discipline their children don't care enough about them. It is not a literal expression of the opinion that all little boys need hitting with a stick. And if we're going all Biblical about it, then are we up for banning bacon and mass circumcision too? Opinions on smacking vary, and I respect the right of any PARENT to decide that's the most effective way to discipline their own child. It just has no place in school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LymmParent Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 More to the point, LP, are you saying behaviour in society as a whole since the abolition of corporal punishment has got better...or worse. I fear you may be a product of liberal attitudes yourself to hold the views you do! Rest assured, I was smacked as a child. Never without a warning, never in anger, and it did me no harm at all. On the other hand, apart from making me cross and making my leg hurt, it never achieved anything much either. My parents are as traditional as you can get and raised us all in line with their views. There was nothing "liberal" about their household and there's nothing "liberal" in mine either. Not in the sense you're using it. Would you and your daughter really be happy if your grand-daughter came home from school today with marks from where her teacher had hit her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Just for interest; what do these liberal, spare the rod types do; if/when little Jonny doesn't play by these nammy pamby rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 One of the great frustations of debate on a forum is that people only answer the points they want to. LP has been asked at least three times if she thinks standards of behaviour of got worse or better but has avoided the question. I fear I will have to agree to differ with her because I do think corporal punishment makes a difference, whether administered by the parents (the ideal situation) or the school. If my child came home marked from a beating by a teacher the likelihood is they would get another mark from me. I don't regard grounding as a punishment at all, not least because parents don't usually keep it going. They get fed up with the inconvenience before the child does! Same with detention at school - it's not just detention for the child but for the teacher also. LP won't answer the question about whether behaviour has got worse, I suspect because even she realises it has. I can't think of any other reason other than the lack of discipline which rolls on from generation to generation, probably eventually disappearing altogether. Where it will end, God only knows! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazj Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 just in case you missed it So LP, are you saying that discipline and manners and behaviour in schools (and society in general) has got better since the abolition of corporal punishment.... or worse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LymmParent Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 We differ only on the basis of striking children. We all agree that any form of discipline in school must be supported by parents, and that parents must be responsible for putting manners on their children in the first place. Of course a punishment won't work if not consistently applied - that's also true of caning. If a teacher can't be bothered, doesn't like doing it, likes doing it too much or plays favourites, then that is devalued too. Again, we all agree that consistency of discipline is a basic core value. I'm happy to respect your views and agree to differ. If you want to instruct the school to cane your child, I'm not going to interfere. As for my opinion of moral decline, I believe I covered that when I posted that there are just as many offenders from the generations and establishments where corporal punishment is in force as from those where it is not. If you want it in plainer terms, the human race has a proportion of immoral people and it seems pretty constant to me over history, although the offences change as technology etc advances. I can say with certainty that mobile phone theft was nonexistent in my day - but I can also say there was a lot more nicking of washing lines for skipping ropes!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LymmParent Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 just in case you missed it So LP, are you saying that discipline and manners and behaviour in schools (and society in general) has got better since the abolition of corporal punishment.... or worse? I don't know. I'd have to have some information and a few facts to form an opinion on that - but please don't let me stop you. I only know about a few schools and actually, the only ones where I could make direct comparison would be the two I attended myself and then had my children attend. And in both cases, I would have to say that there's no difference either way, kids still seem to be kids. As for society in general, are we talking about the abolition of the birch in 1948? I wasn't actually born then Baz, so I really wouldn't know...... but what I can see is that all those good hidings you got haven't stopped you from being rather opinionated, disrespectful and rude on occasion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Bet some parents and the head/governors are happy that no-one seems to be worried about the new school uniforms now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LymmParent Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Focus has shifted onto the lunchtime changes, and this time a proper meeting was organised at plenty of notice and a time more suited to parents than teaching staff, so nobody is feeling disrespected or uninformed, which was the main source of anger over uniforms. The uniform is coming in sensibly and it turns out the blazer is going to be around the same price and girls who don't like the kilt can wear trousers..... ..... so all in all, people may continue to like or dislike the head or her actions, because everything is a matter of opinion in the end, but the awful atmosphere has settled down a lot. Hopefully it'll all die of natural causes over the summer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateoflymm Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 So we can assume that Miss Walsh has learned that democracy is more effective than autocracy, at least in Lymm H S. I'm pleased to hear that. It's just a shame that her sartorial taste seems to be so lacking, her democratic leanings having deserted her in the matter of the new uniform, which looks, from the examples shown, quite hideous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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