Pandemic on it's way.

[observer]

It's evidently too late now - the genie is out of the bottle. It should have been "contained" from the identification of the first case back in mid-Feb, when confined to a village east of Mexico City. Unfortunately, no water tight doors were closed, and now we're all going to get a taste of sea water!

[Lt Kije]

So what car do you drive and what Tv do you watch, you go on ons on about our politicians no practicing what they preach, do you, or are you as bad

[Peter T]

So what car do you drive and what Tv do you watch, you go on ons on about our politicians no practicing what they preach, do you, or are you as bad

 

Hardly what you would call basic essentials.

 

Coal wouldn't need to be imported IF we used our own. And if we grew our own food and only imported the stuff that we couldn't grow, it would go a long way to making the place self-sufficient.

 

The country is virtually controlled by foreigners (and we will pay a price for that) as is the motor industry. But the average man in the streets had no control over these matters, but the Governments obviously had no sense of keeping Britain British.

And you want us to stay in the EU?

[wolfie]

I phoned the NHS helpline yesterday but all I got was 'cracklin'

[Lt Kije]

Coal wouldn't need to be imported IF we used our own

 

Most of the Mines the Tories shut could not be re-opened

 

The Uk cannot grow enough wheat, We could not be self sufficient in food so we would still have to import to survive. The UK is an Island and has always depended on trade are wealth stems from it.

 

We would have to import energy (oil + gas) which make the economy move.

 

What would you have us self sufficient in

[Peter T]

Typically negative, You must have "Ostrich syndrome". Perhaps you need to read up on your history.

Before the EU started dictating quotas, this country did pretty well at feeding itself.

[observer]

Think you need to start swotting up a bit Kyje: One reason we don't produce enough wheat and other cereal crops, is because your EU's agricultural policy actually encourages farmers to leave fields fallow, or waste time on bio-fuel crops - do you remember the beef mountains and wine lakes? Energy: we have sufficient tidal, wave and hydro-electricity potential, plus thousands of years of coal (that can now be surface mined and can use carbon capture technology, the development of which, could give us a lead in this field); and that's not even counting wind power. Food: food manufacturers are now developing mass production food farms, in massive greenhouses, where even non-indigenous fruits and veg can be produced. There are acres of unused waste land that could be used as allotments for cheap organic produce. Manufacturing: despite the decimation of our manufacturing base and take-overs by foreign multi-nationals; we still retain a highly skilled and inventive workforce (mainly employed in weapons production); so swords into plough-shares would allow us to produce almost anything we desire. The transportation of goods globally, is one of the major contributors to global warming - something I thought you liberals were opposed to - so perhaps you need to make your minds up and try some consistency?!

[Peter T]

Perhaps that would reduce the income of the "controllers".

We can't have that. The boxes have to be ticked.

[Lt Kije]

The Uk has never been self sufficient in Wheat We had to import it in WW2

 

Its your anti European memory kicking in again, Harking back to days that never actually existed

 

Most of our coal is deep and cannot be surface mined, that is what made our coal expensive and uncompetitive, The only place where tidal energy would be cost effective is off the coast of Bristol, The Scots could be self sufficient in Hydro electricity, Not the English . I think you forget I work in the energy field. Unless the UK goes totally Nuclear we could never now be en energy self sufficient

 

Where are we going to get our IRON a base product for manufacturing, and how are we going to pay for it in your world. We depend on trade for cash so we can buy products

 

If you follow your way, the UK would be living in the Stone age

[observer]

Well that's strange; could swear I watched a TV programe filmed at a surface mine in the UK, and cost isn't the only consideration in any case, the whole point of self sufficiency is independence and non-reliance on imports. I never said we were ever self-sufficient in wheat, merely that your EU pays money to farmers to keep fields non-productive; if we maximised production per acre we would be less dependent on imported wheat. Scotland for your information, is still part of the UK - the British Nation; and you could be fully employed on hydro-electric dam schemes, to supply fresh water and electricity which would be adequate, and save any dependency on Australia etc for fisionable material for nuclear plants, not to mention French know how to build them. BTW, the majority of our imports are from the EU, we are their biggest customer, all the type of goods we could produce here; we are actually forbidden as a member of the EU to negotiate independent trade agreements with the rest of the world; yet another reason to leave it. You'll no doubt explain the logic of our farmers having to ship live animals across the channel for slaughter, just so they can be shipped right back as meat?! As I've said before; the origins of "trade" were fairly straight forward, the exchange of goods that couldn't be produced locally; in the name of ever cheaper products, we now rely on imported goods that are derived from exploited labour in other countries - the inevitable result of capitalism.

[Lt Kije]

Electricity produced in Scotland could not supply all of England use loose power the longer the cable. Ask an engineer:wink:

 

If all our industry was geared for self sufficiency, how would we gain foreign currency for the things we cannot make.

 

We would still be completely reliant on trade with other Countries for all raw materials for Industry

 

All these metals are present in a modern car How many is the UK self suffient in

 

Iron (Fe)

Manganese (Mn) :- Steel alloy

Arsenic (As) :- Solder

Boron ( :- Steel

Niobium (Nb) :- High-strength, low-alloy steel

Silver (Ag) :- Electrical contacts

Magnesium (Mg) :- Aluminium alloy

Lead (Pb) :- Battery

Chromium (Cr) :- Plating

Cadmium (Cd) :- Plating

Nickel (Ni) :- Plating, Stainless steel

Copper (Cu) :- Electrical wiring, radiator

Zinc (Zn) :- Anti-corrosion plating

Vanadium (V) :- Steel

Cobalt (Co) :- Steel

Barium (Ba) :- Engine lubricants

Strontium (Sr) :- Steel

Tungsten (Wo) :- Light filaments

Titanium (Ti) :- Steel, paint

Molybdenum (Mo) :- Engine lubricants, steel

Sodium (Na) : - Grease

Calcium (Ca) :- Oils, greases

Lithium (Li) :- Grease in the door locks

Germanium (Ge) :- Diodes

Gallium (Ga) :- Diodes

Tin (Sn) : - Solder

Antimony (Sb) :- Solder

 

How many Countries would we have to trade with to make a car

 

Ps

I might do a washing machine next

[observer]

And here's me thinking your green credentials were opposed to the car! Again, it must have been another mirage on TV, but a prog about the geology of Britain, seems to dispute your assertion - I'll leave it at that. Prior to the advent of the EU, we imported raw materials from the Commonwealth, which we converted into finished products and exported in return - remember the sobrique "workshop of the world"?! Now that's what real trade is all about!

[asperity]

I'm in broad agreement with you Obs, except when you bring up the "global warming" rubbish with its CCS and windmills. Build more coal fired power stations to provide the extra CO2 that crops depend on to grow and thrive, it is airborne plant food after all! It would be a definite step forward to throw off the EUSSR shackles. They need us more than we need them. They need us to buy their goods, we have the whole world to trade with, after all global trade is what made Britain Great.

[Lt Kije]

Empire made Britain Great, The ability not to pay a fair price for the raw materials we took out of the empire turn them into goods and export them.

 

We seem to of gone from self sufficiency to Trade, can I take it that self sufficiency debate has been lost

[asperity]

True to form Ltkije you are critical of the British Empire which brought a lot of benefits to the world in exchange for raw materials.

 

The other point is that this topic is about swine flu and not self sufficiency or trade. Having said that, the "pandemic " seems to have petered out as well

[Lt Kije]

Are you saying the British Empire was a good thing Asperity

 

The Uks exploitation of millions

[asperity]

You say that as if I ought to be ashamed!!!!!!! Of course it was a good thing. You are just looking at it from your modern LibDim wishy washy perspective and not from the realistic point of view about world conditions at the time. Britain gave modern civilisation to a large number of people. And don't go blaming Britain for the way certain people in the countries involved have perverted the good governance Britain gave them into dictatorships. Now can we get back to laughing at the "pandemic" that never was??

[Lt Kije]

If it was such a good thing why did it end, If we gave them civilization, why would they want it to end, And are you suggesting they had no civilization of there own. Also are you denying that we expoited them, after all that whats Empires about, we did not invade them for there own good we did it for our good

[Peter T]

Just a point of interest, where is the industry that will allow us to trade?

[Lt Kije]

A good point Peter, We export more services these days sadly, we still to quite well with defense though, but it does not deter from the fact that we need trade to survive, Self sufficiently for the UK is farcical, we do not have enough raw materials of our own, we have to import, and to import you have to have foreign currency and to get that you have to trade.

[Eagle]

Loo, you are correct we are not self sufficient and need to trade to survive, but we need to get out from under the rule of our Euromasters and trade whatever we wish for whatever we wish with whoever we wish.

 

BTW, what happened to the pandemic, relegated to page 10 in the Mail ? Will we get the warning leaflets (?7m) before it has disappeared altogether?

[Lt Kije]

The Eu is not perfect eagle, but I would rather change it from the inside, than try from the outside. There is a new party trying to do that Libertas, I will need more info about them fi they are to get my vote

[asperity]

If it was such a good thing why did it end, If we gave them civilization, why would they want it to end, And are you suggesting they had no civilization of there own. Also are you denying that we expoited them, after all that whats Empires about, we did not invade them for there own good we did it for our good

 

I don't want to go into the details of history but, after WW2 Britain was a wee bit broke and in hock to the USA. The USA didn't want Britain having an Empire and "suggested" it was broken up by giving independence to all the various territories "occupied".

 

You carefully omit "modern" from civilisation, but that doesn't suprise me!

Of course we exploited them! No point in going there otherwise

 

I think "invade" is a bit strong a term given the actual number of civil servants used to "subjugate" the colonies, and to be fair there have been some very successful nation states created from the "invaded" territories

But as a hater of historical Britain you wouldn't like to think that this country ever did anything good would you.

[Lt Kije]

I think you will find as many failed States, I don't remember saying I hated our History, The World is still trying to sort out the mess we made in the Middle East, and people are still dying, India is now a solid state, but how many lives did partition cost.

 

Are you going to use Australia and New Zealand as good examples

 

It is you who needs a history lesson

[observer]

Errm, don't quite know where to start with you, Kyje; your so full of contradictions and the deliberate misreaing of others points. Self sufficiency couldn't be total, and I conceded that "real trade" for those goods we can't mine, grow or produce here would still be required, but certainly not on the scale of today. You LibDems claim to be "green", but your advocacy of more trade, for it's own sake, isn't a particularly enviromentally friendly pursuit (Asp: I'm just using Kyje's own arguements against him - for the purpose of exposing his inconsistency). As for "exploitation" by the British Empire, the exploitation to obtain CHEAP raw materials, using CHEAP labour; is still the hallmark of our relationship with the third world - it's a natural consequence of our materialism and of capitalism. The problem now of course is; that we are forbidden as paid up members of the EU (at a cost of ?40million per day); from making any unilateral trade agreements with the rest of the world. Think you may find that it was the Hindus and Muslims themselves who wanted partition?