Flash Floods -

[observer]

- in Orford. (ww news) See Cllr Anon is kicking off against the Council over flash flooding in Densham Ave, calling for "urgent" action - although I'm at a loss to understand what "urgent" means in these circumstances where the damage has clearly been done. Then the report is confusing, as the Cllr complains "no sandbags" were issued by the Council; the the "local artist!", complains that he wasn't issued with any because he is a private owner, but got some from neighbours? The reason "flash floods" occure Cllr; are because the local drainage infrastructure is inadeqate to deal with a sudden deluge of rain water; it would require large bore storm drains and pumping stations built years in advance to be prepared for this sort of thing; perhaps something we could have spent the ?5million on, rather than throwing it away on the Town Centre skittles?!

[Bazj]

Obs

 

I can understand your reasoning but if we only spent money on "urgent" things, the town would be a bloody drab place to live in.

 

I spent a few years living at 31 Liverpool Road; on the terraced block near the chinese chippy on the corner. My house was in a flood area (in fact the house had been submerged at some time which was eveident because the bottom metre of the ground floor walls had all been replastered and the bottom 6 steps of the stairs were newer than the rest.

 

I always carried a few sandbags in the shed and I actually raised the height of the front step by 3 inches. That was enough to stop my house flooding on 3 occassions when my neighbours houses did. Why should it always be left to someone else to sort out? Can people not do things for themselves these days or have we had too much of the nanny state for the last 10 years?

[observer]

You havn't caught my drift Baz: I wasn't the one that was moaning; it was the local Councillor bleating (see ww news).

[Peter T]

You beat me to it obs.

Wasn't this the guy behind spending all that money on the Pyramid? (which we still subsidise I am told.)

 

What I find hard to comprehend, is that the problem was there when Labour were in power for all those years.

 

WHY wasn't it sorted then?

[observer]

Cos sorting the practical problems out that ordinary folk have to experience, doesn't provide the same kudos as a Skittles or a Pyramid - it's all about "pet projects"!

[McBain]

Drainage infrastructure is all very well being tacked on to any new developments but this overlooks the fact - which is the point that Obs is making - that some of the biggest areas at risk already exist and have no such defences.

 

Moreover (and again as Obs points out) there have been no efforts made to retrospectively install measures that might reduce the known risks to these areas.

 

It would be easy to do by way of a common s106 contribution levied on all developments (e.g. instead of daft requirements for open space) but I wouldn't trust local Government to administer it properly.

 

I wonder if the same local Councillor will be calling for "urgent action" when the lights go out due to decades of under investment in energy production and security?

[observer]

Most of our sewers were built by the Victorians; indeed (in York) by the Romans; politicians never address such basic infrastructure concerns because they're not "sexy" enough. Historically, the only reason they stopped using the Thames as London's main sewer, is because the stench became unbreathable in the House of Commons!

[vic]

No amount of funding can beat geography. The Longford Barrage (at Athlone Road) was designed to stop flooding into Longford from the Dallam Brook side. It worked on this occasion (as on all others), but as the water on the Dallam side was higher than on the Longford side, there was nowhere for the water to go, and Densham Avenue just happens to be the lowest point of the local roads. The water levels in the Dallam / Sankey Brook stayed high all day partly because the bridge at Old Liverpool Road is too small to get all flood water through it, and the overflow into the Sankey Canal didn't seem to take it all.

 

Cllr Hannon was at Densham Avenue all morning and finally persuaded United Utilities not just to wait till it subsided but to send tankers to cart away the floodwaters to be treated at the sewage works.

 

There clearly was a delay between the flood warnings and the provision of sandbags (at 4 a.m. two hours after the floods). Whether it's realistic to expect residents to maintain their own supply of sandbags is another matter, but when idiots insist on driving 4x4s through the floodwaters and sending bow-waves into houses, even sandbags may not suffice.

 

Any technical solutions would be welcome....

[observer]

There's a man made super drain for Warrington, called the Manchester Ship Canal, at a lower level than all the surrounding geography.

[Peter T]

nah, too easy.

[vic]

Not just too easy, not even true.

 

The Ship canal above Latchford lock is at the same level as the Mersey above Howley Weir; below Howley Weir the Mersey is of course dropping level all the time but is lower than the Ship Canal downstream of Latchford, except at high tide when the levels are roughly the same.

 

United Utilities have allocated ?1.5m over 5 years to help prevent sewer flooding in Warrington (not a lot out of ?450m annual profit maybe) but pumping sewage into the Mersey or the Ship Canal does not seem the answer.

[observer]

A simple question of hydraulics and gravity; using high tide sea level as your base and thus lowest point: given the piping capacity and pumping infrastructure, nothing above that point should flood.

[vic]

I think you'll find that Lynmouth, Boscastle, Shrewsbury etc are somewhat above high tide level.

 

Exceptional high tide coupled with torrential rain and the whole of Padgate's at risk....

[Geoffrey Settle]

Well that's mine and Observer's houses sunk without a trace as we both live in the area near water sources and when it rains on Winter Hill we feel the force the next day. At least the sand bags they left the other week are still close by.

[Eagle]

I didn't realise that you lived in Horwich Geoff

[observer]

Yes Vic; but we don't have high capacity storm drains to take away a sudden downpour, nor adequate soak away land (that acts like a sponge to absorb excess water), due to building on the flood plains.

[Geoffrey Settle]

Actually I enjoy competing in the annual fell race that goes up Rivington Pike - it's one of my favorites - and the football stadium is quite good - but your right I don't live there just visit a lot.

[Eagle]

???????????? Geoff, if I am right then you live in Horwich being deluged by the water off Winter Hill.

[Geoffrey Settle]

Ok if you insist its the extended section of Horwich. Fortunately a great deal of the rain water ends up in the Manchester Ship Canal and channeled out to the Irish sea. The canal therefore prevents Warrington from being flooded even more.

 

Given that around 5 million people, in 2 million properties, live in flood risk areas in England I think that we get off lightly but more can certainly be done to protect from both inland sources and the sea.

 

For those of you who are at risk the Environmental Agency off advice on their web site http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/subjects/flood/826674/830330/?lang=_e

[observer]

Issue scuba gear?!

[Geoffrey Settle]

That's true Warrington could stage it's own Bog Snokling Championships.

[observer]

Think you'll find that historically, the Mersey Valley had a substantial flood plain, all of which acted to soak up excess water; now that's been largely built over it's no wonder we have floods.

[Geoffrey Settle]

Think you'll find that historically, the Mersey Valley had a substantial flood plain, all of which acted to soak up excess water; now that's been largely built over it's no wonder we have floods.

 

As you say that has been one traditional 'soak' a natural drain whilst the canal is used as a man made one (as described at last years annual Warrington Nature Conservation Forum at Risley).

 

Yes the growing and now well recognised problem is building on the land you speak of as well as the uncontrolled trend to pave everywhere.. We need to consider letting some area flood.

 

A working plan needs to be produced (to take all of the above and more into consideration) and measures taken to alleviate the situation. It's not going to be simple and will require legislation, co-operation and clear thinking.

 

Nature conservation groups, planners, academics, local government, industry and other interested parties will have to meet to discuss the issues.

[Peter T]

Steady Geoff. Agreeing with observer?????

[observer]

I notice the wheel is beginning to turn full circle in Manchester Peter!