American War of Independence?

[observer]

Was the loss of our American Colonies inevitable?

[observer]

Or, even if the Brits had retained control of the American Colonies at that time; wouldn't those colonies have eventually outgrown their affiliation to Britain anyway? :confused:

[Mary]

It was all about money as most wars, if not all wars are about. One group wants to control another group in order to take their resources. The controlled group rebels.

[Chris]

I recall a high school lesson where we were told that one of the Generals in Queen Victoria's time had advocated sending a force to reclaim the American colonies, but the Prince Consort, Albert, had counselled her against the plan. True or false?

[observer]

No idea Chris; but there was some dispute with the US over the line of the Canadian border?

[Jerry]

Obs may be referring to a boundary dispute in the Northwest - Vancouver area. Every schoolboy here has heard of "54-40 or FIGHT!". I don't know if those coordinates are the modern latitudes/longitudes or not, but I believe it was post 1812. I don't think Queen Victoria's prime ministers would have entertained Chris's query, even if Albert were not counseling her.

 

I don't think there was ever any time when any of our fellows relished trying to deal with those Frenchies up there in Montreal and Eastern Canada. They have a saying 'we are zee fightairs, not zee loveairs...'

[Jerry]

Re: inevitability of Britain retaining the colonies. I believe Mary said it very well. However, would like to add a comment that by 1776 we were more than British populations, and in fact, after Independence retained English as our official language by a narrow margin of one vote in Continental Congress -- over GERMAN!

[Jerry]

Right. The boundary with Canada was worked out in 1846 under President Polk, who also presided over some troubles with Mexico.

 

Oregon boundary dispute

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

The Oregon Country/Columbia District"Disputed Area" is the main area of dispute, although the whole region was disputed

The Oregon Country/Columbia District

"Disputed Area" is the main area of dispute, although the whole region was disputed

 

The Oregon boundary dispute (often called the Oregon question) arose as a result of competing British and American claims to the Oregon Country, a region of northwestern North America known also from the British perspective as the Columbia District, a fur-trading division of the Hudson's Bay Company. The region at question lay west of the Continental Divide and between the 42nd Parallel of latitude on the south (the northward limit of New Spain and after 1821 of Mexico) and the 54 degrees, 40 minutes line of latitude (the southward limit of Russian America).

 

Both the United Kingdom and the United States had territorial and commercial interests in the Oregon country as well as residual claims from treaties with Russia and Spain. By Article III of the Anglo-American Convention of 1818 the United Kingdom and the United States agreed to what has since been described as "joint occupancy", demurring on any resolution of the territorial and treaty issues until a later time. Negotiations over the next few decades failed to settle upon a compromise boundary and the Oregon Dispute became important in geopolitical diplomacy between the British Empire and the new American Republic.

 

American economic activity in the region until the 1840s consisted of a Boston-owned fur trading post staffed by French Canadians at Fort Astoria near the mouth of the Columbia River, the Whitman Mission east of the Cascades, the Methodist Mission in the Willamette Valley, Fort William on present day Sauvie Island,[1] a saw mill in the valley partly owned by Ewing Young,[2] a grist mill also in the valley built in 1834,[3] the Willamette Cattle Company organized in 1837 to bring over 600 head of cattle to the Willamette Valley, as well as ongoing marine fur trade vessels. The British mandate was in the form of a licence held by the Hudson's Bay Company to trade with the populous aboriginal peoples of the region, and a network of trading posts and routes extended southward from New Caledonia, another HBC fur-trade district, into the Columbia basin. The HBC's headquarters for the entire region became established at Fort Vancouver (today's Vancouver, Washington), which became the centre of a thriving colony of mixed origin, including French Canadians, Hawaiians, Algonkians and Iroquois, as well as the offspring of company employees who had intermarried with various local native populations. Actual American settlers in the region were negligible[citation needed] until the arrival of the Whitman Party in 1843; the Dispute over the region is usually attributed to increasing numbers of American settlers moving into the country, which did not actually take place until the 1840s.

 

In 1844 the U.S. Democratic Party, appealing to expansionist sentiment, asserted that the U.S. had a valid claim to the entire Oregon Country. Democratic presidential candidate James K. Polk won the 1844 election, but then sought a compromise boundary along the 49th parallel, the same boundary proposed by previous U.S. administrations. Negotiations between the U.S. and the British broke down, however, and tensions grew as American expansionists like U.S. Senator Edward Allen Hannegan of Indiana urged Polk to annex the entire Oregon Country up to latitude 54?40'N, as the Democrats had called for in the election. The turmoil gave rise to slogans like "Fifty-Four Forty or Fight!", often mistakenly associated with the 1844 election, and the catchphrase "Manifest Destiny".

 

The expansionist agenda of Polk and the Democratic Party created the possibility of two different, simultaneous wars, because relations between the United States and Mexico were deteriorating following the annexation of Texas. Just before the outbreak of the war with Mexico, Polk returned to his earlier position on the Oregon boundary and accepted a compromise along the 49th parallel. This agreement was made official in the 1846 Oregon Treaty, and the 49th parallel remains the boundary between the United States and Canada.

[observer]

Just for interest: was that "Polk" the same guy who fought as a General in the Confederate States Army? :confused: (I think he was at Shiloh?) :confused:

[Jerry]

No way!!! Polk was a southerner all right, but he died in 1849 and the Civil War started in 1860 or 1861 -- with Lincoln's election in Nov.'60.

[observer]

Could it be a relation or was there another President Polk? :confused:

[observer]

Sorry Jezz: just re-consulted my library; General Leonidas Polk, had been a classmate of Jefferson Davis at West Point, and became a Bishop in the Episcopal Church - killed by an artillery shell while visiting a strong point on Pine Mountain.

[Jerry]

Now I'm confused. According to Elvis Presley in POLK SALAD ANNIE, poor people, starving people, used to pick certain green weeds and boil it up, calling it Polk Salad. Now I must wonder if it was named for the President or the General.

 

Polk salad Annie, gator got yer granny...

ever body said it was a shame, how her momma was workin' on a chain gang..... mean, vicious, straight-razor toting woman.... Lord have mercy!!!

[ex padgate girl]

Originally posted by Jerry:

mean, vicious, straight-razor toting woman.... Lord have mercy!!!

Talking about me again i see. lol :onfire:

[Evil Sid]

The pokeweeds, also known as poke, pokebush, pokeberry, pokeroot, polk salad, polk sallet, inkberry or omb?

 

Young pokeweed leaves can be boiled three times to reduce the toxin, discarding the water after each boiling. The result is known as poke salit, or Poke salad, and is occasionally available commercially. Many authorities advise against eating pokeweed even after thrice boiling, as traces of the toxin may still remain. For many decades, Poke salad has been a staple of southern U.S. cuisine, despite campaigns by doctors who believed pokeweed remained toxic even after being boiled. The lingering cultural significance of Poke salad can be seen in the recording of the song "Polk Salad Annie" by Tony Joe White, famously covered by Elvis Presley and the El Orbits.

 

think i will give it a miss then.

[Goonerman]

James Knox Polk was President in the 1840s. There was only one President Polk. The only Presidents with the same surnames as other ones were called Adams, Harrison, Roosevelt, and Bush. The irony is that had George III and his ministers not seen Massachusetts as being as British as Finchley, but have regarded America as it really was, an imperial colony, they would have governed America differently, been more inclined to appoint Americans in charge, and made it a special case geared to American needs, but in the end, America indeed would have outgrown us. It would have gone the same way as Canada. But would we have a united Commonwealth country of North America today then? :confused: Also, given the US' supremacy today, the idea of us holding onto America and them to us is somewhat ridiculous with hindsight, though the British Empire's peak was nowhere near having happened as yet. Of course, the spoiling influence of the French played its part. But Louis XVI's triumph in helping America beat Britain had its price. France ended up bankrupt, and we all know what that led to- hum the Marseillaise.

[Jerry]

Sid gave it a miss so this is for e.p. girl:

 

POLK SALAD ANNIE

Tony Joe White

(words & music by Tony Joe White)

(Recitation)

If some of ya'll never been down South too much...

I'm gonna tell you a little bit about this, so that you'll understand What I'm talking about

Down there we have a plant that grows out in the

woods and the fields,looks somethin' like a turnip green. Everybody calls it Polk salad. Polk salad.

Used to know a girl that lived down there and

she'd go out in the evenings and pick a mess of it... Carry it home and cook it for supper, 'cause that's about all they had to eat,

But they did all right.

 

Down in Louisiana Where the alligators grow so mean There lived a girl that I swear to the world Made the alligators look tame

 

Polk salad Annie polk salad Annie

Everybody said it was a shame

Cause her mama was working on the chain-gang

(a mean, vicious woman)

 

Everyday 'fore supper time She'd go down by the truck patch And pick her a mess o' Polk salad And carry it home in a tote sack

 

Polk salad Annie 'Gators got you granny

Everybody said it was a shame

'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang

(a wretched, spiteful, straight-razor totin' woman, Lord have mercy. Pick a mess of it)

 

Her daddy was lazy and no count Claimed he had a bad back All her brothers were fit for was stealin' watermelons out of my truck patch

Polk salad Annie, the gators got your granny

Everybody said it was a shame Cause her mama was a working' on the chain gang

 

(Sock a little polk salad to me, you know I need a mess of it)