Peace Centre?

[Goonerman]

Obbs, the Peace Centre was suggested by a kid from West Belfast in a letter to CP. The Trust is modelled on peace groups in the flashpoint areas of Belfast which have done an unheralded and sterling work keeping things sane. They helped contribute, alongside the security work, to preventing the Troubles develop into a full-scale civil war. So they made a difference- and I can assure you, Obbs, had a full-scale civil war occurred, both Dublin and England would have got hurt more severely.

 

It's no coincidence that during the year of the Peace People emerging, 1976, 250 people were killed in the Troubles. In 1978 the deaths dropped to under 100, and apart from 1981, the death toll never hit over 100 again. Mind you, the British Army's hard work in smashing the IRA brigade structure played a huge part in that, forcing Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness and Ivor Bell into reshaping the Provos into an organisation based on cells instead.

 

But, you don't surprise me, Obbs. I know you are not for peace.

 

If the Peace Centre goes, the IRA will have fulfilled their mission in bombing Warrington and the people of Warrington will have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Without the Warrington crowd muscling in during the protests against violence in late 1993, the Ulster public's momentum for peace would not have worked as the mainland media would not have been interested and the IRA would still have thought they could have won.

 

I'll try my small part in making sure you lose, Obbs. Within the bounds of legality and morality!

 

You can sneer at 'Peace and Good Will to All Men" all you wish, but let me flash you a warning. Modern research shows that the good old Authorised King James Version is following a manuscript error! The proper reading is:

 

"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favour rests."

 

God DOESN'T give peace and good will to all men. He offers it. And if you don't accept it, if you are not in His favour, you are under His wrath and anger, unless you turn.

 

Jesus offered peace to His own people, but they decided to opt for the nationalistic, violent approach, and paid the price. Had they bided their time, they would have conquered the Roman Empire by peace, and so when Christianity triumphed, a more Jewish Christianity would have not been seduced by paganism and worldly power as Gentile Christianity did. But that's the sad truth about humanity. Rebel scum, we are, who need either a good eternal kicking or mercy.

 

It's humans who fail. But, there is no harm in trying, and a lot of good in trying. The Peace Centre are doing a terrific job in Leeds, dealing with two schools, one white, one Muslim dominated, which merged and became a madhouse of hatred and violence, until the Peace Centre intervened.

 

I know what it is- it's because the Bishop of Liverpool is a patron, isn't it? Ohhhhh, it's a CONSPIRACY!!!

[Goonerman]

Good man, Wolfie! Thumbs up! I thought you were speaking metaphorically about the wood! Oops! You were being literal!

I apologise!

 

Funny thing is, TD is coming off with the kind of argument I'd expect from Northern Ireland from someone exasperated with fuss over England bombings as opposed to Northern Ireland ones being ignored. Needless to say, fussing only over English bombings or picking one bombing over the other is wrong as is the other attitude, of wrongly whinging over the bereaved in Warrington only caring about Warrington- both hideously off the mark, wildly inaccurate and inadequate responses. Which is precisely why the Peace Centre was needed. And I will repeat, it was a child from West Belfast who devised the concept of the Peace Centre. CP went along with it thinking it was a great idea.

[Goonerman]

Perhaps, Gary, a potted history of WIRE (Warrington Ireland Reconciliation Enterprise), and the Warrington Project (which is different from the Tim Parry/Johnathan Ball Foundation For Peace) is in order too.

[tara_dad]

sorry had to put this onfast as i am on my way out so ..sorry

its just had to reply to goonerman

 

As you see when things are talked about more come to light . No one has said it?s a bad thing that they do but why as the people of Warrington always have to pay . As some one said where is the publicity about dealing with Muslims . Peace came to north Ireland so why is it always fetched up we live in a Societye where we forgive and get on with our lives this is the English way of life.

Warrington was not the only town who have lost children north Ireland lost a lot more. Plus no one said that there is a conspiracy going on within the peace centre,

only that all that goes on there is to do with peace . But ask your self?s why is it that all the adults are getting the publicity. when you see the youths club side and the NSPCC they use the youths to get the message across which shows in this day and age that its not only bad publicity that to days youths attracts and shows that youths are not all that bad.

 

Now on a black note what would someone dealing with a youths get involved in a case pushing that youths are bad and dangers and now are open to kill???

no matter if your young or old there will always be some one that get murdered that life. Unless that we are promoting peace between adults and youths which this is clearly showing that?s a war I do not know about.

I will never understand the peace side until I see the youths getting the publicity which clearly they need instead of adults hogging the lime light by saying look what we are doing but one can see this as clearly is being shown even on here.

 

Gary no one is saying your intension are bad you clearly show more on this side than any other and you give publicity to all charity you always have and I know you always will.

but on this are you showing the youths ? or showing the public adults meeting VIPs all the time as this clearly showing an ego trip for some adults and why if this is such a big thing that England should be helping with donation not just the Warrington people.

 

Gary you know me I would be the first in line to help out but until some question are answered there will always be a nagging thought in peoples minds is why do we have to pay all the time the youth club side get the publicity which the teenagers generate them self?s we all know about the NSPCC and the publicity they get and that?s it.

So most of it you have to go onto the web site to see what happens. hold on ask the people of Warrington do they have to use the internet to find information about a charity. but in the press you see the adults meeting VIPs all the time getting good publicity this is a youths charity by the way. So the answer is use the internet ?

 

And to peter T yes it looks like it as it as some concerns to the Warrington people

 

Lets get this right we are saying the peace centre here a number originations which use this centre are all different names but ask most Warrington people think that its only the peace side that happens there and this give the wrong message across.

 

 

Goonerman you say??..That the Peace Centre is doing something PRACTICAL aboutyour call: "let's remember other days like Enniskillen (11 people dead) M62 bombing (eight off-duty soldiers and two young children) Birmingham pub bombing (21 people were killed) Omagh (which killed 28 people) which as distorted more lives the list just goes on and on so what happened in warringtion is small in the peace works." Hmmm.

 

Well I say is why should the Warrington people donate to you and not the Clinton Peace Centre in Enniskillen, Co Fermanagh http://www.clintoncentre.co.uk/ or Omagh OMAGH SUPPORT & SELF HELP GROUP http://www.omaghbomb.co.uk/ Omagh Fund http://www.omagh.gov.uk/district_of_omagh/omagh_remembers/omagh_fund/ or Palace Barracks Memorial Garden http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.org/Royal%20Corps%20of%20Signals.htm

 

yes that is what I am saying lets remember and give not only to you.

 

The 15 year old girl who was killed in the Baltic Exchange bombing was scarcely mentioned. Wrong ??Danielle Carther that was her name Danielle

 

In 1972, a 14 year old, Stephen Parker, was killed by a car bomb. He was the son of a prominent peace campaigner who later founded the Witness for Peace movement,

 

The 15 year old brother of Katrina Rennie who was shot in 1991, also set up a reconciliation group.

 

In 1997 after James, a local 16 year old Catholic was beaten to death, 200 of the mainly Protestant residents of the village met and agreed to rid the village ?through words, gestures and deeds? of a sectarian image.

 

Siobhan age 4 had gone to visit her grandmother further down the street when a bullet hit her.

10 month old Bridget died in her father?s arms, with her parents, in a petrol bombing.

 

15 month Graeme was in his mother?s arms when debris from a car bomb killed him.

 

Paul aged 4 was playing in his garden when he was shot in the head.

 

Lee aged 5 and Robert aged 2 were blown up when a bomb exploded on a coach.

 

Jacqueline aged 17 month and Anne Marie aged were blown up in a car bomb explosion.

 

Patrick aged 7 bringing home the cows when the bomb went off.

 

Michelle aged 3 was holding her father?s hand when the booby-trap bomb blew up. All that was left were bits of her dress.

 

The list goes on and on so don not think for once that Warrington only as the right to morn children. I have known all about the above from serving in the army and serving over there I do not forget and never will.

And I am not a ipparcrit as here areis a list as well killed by the British.

Under 18s killed at Bloody Sunday:

all age 17

Jack Duddy, Hugh Gilmore, Michael Kelly, Kevin McElhinney, John Young, Gerard Donaghy and Michael McDaid.

Under 18s

killed by rubber and plastic bullets: Francis Rowntree, Age 11 years. Stephen Geddis, Age 10 years. Brian Stewart, Age 13 years. Paul Whitters, Age 15 years. Julie Livingstone, Age 14 years.Carol Ann Kelly, Age 11 years, returning home from buying a pint of milk.

Stephen McConomy, Age 11 years. Seamus Duffy, Age 15 years. And sadly again the list goes on and on

 

So please do not give get the impression that what happen in Warrington and after is why there is peace it was a small stepping stone in the peace treaty

But lets see how history portrays it

The IRA ceasefire in 1997 formed part of a process that led to the 1998 Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement. The Agreement has among its aims that all paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland cease their activities and disarm by May 2000. This is one of many Agreement aims that have yet to be realised.

Calls from Sinn F?in have led the IRA to commence disarming in a process that has been overviewed by Canadian General John de Chastelain's decommissioning body in October 2001. However, following the collapse of the Stormont power-sharing government in 2002, which was partly triggered by allegations that republican spies were operating within Parliament Buildings and the Civil Service, the IRA temporarily broke off contact with General de Chastelain.

In December 2004, attempts to persuade the IRA to disarm entirely collapsed when the Democratic Unionist Party, under Ian Paisley, insisted on photographic evidence. Justice Minister Michael McDowell (in public, and often) insisted that there would need to be a complete end to IRA activity.

At the beginning of February 2005, the IRA declared that it was withdrawing from the disarmament process, but in July 2005 it declared that its campaign of violence was over, and that transparent mechanisms would be used, under the de Chastelain process, to satisfy the Northern Ireland communities that it was disarming totally.

 

No one as said that what happened did not change the support the IRA got till then which it did. more to come off out now

[observer]

It's now a modern cult, someone loses someone in tragic circumstances and they have to assign some meaningfull project to it all - it's happening all over the show nowadays. You didn't answer my question in one sentence Gman: with religion supposedly preaching "peace" throughout the ages, one would have thought the brain washing technique would have worked by now - but it clearly hasn't. Arn't Bush and Bliar devout Christians - and didn't they con us into a War in Iraq?

[Goonerman]

Hmmmm, TD.

 

Lots of information but seeming confusion there. Goonerman is doing a head scratch here as that posting seemed a little incoherent.

 

Poor Danielle did not get mentioned that much in proportion to the hooha over the financial damage, that was my point.

 

The point being that the Peace Centre was necessary to overcome the problems caused by those of a particular background often being guilty of focussing on the deaths only of those of those of their own background. Plus, as I have said, the Peace Centre is modelled on what has gone on before here in Northern Ireland.

 

The people of Warrington don't always have to pay. I contribute financially to the Peace Centre myself. I'm from Belfast, not Warrington. You see, while it is right that before 1993 there was a recognised need from so many quarters for there to be peace-building between Unionists and Nationalists, or more to the point Loyalists and Republicans, and a need for greater understanding between North and South, the East-West connection was forgotten and tended to centre on the loss of British Army personnel with nothing being done for the victims of those or the survivors, with a lot of fuss about mainland bombings without anything substantial being done for the victims of those or their relatives, with the failure of the British public or media to feel the same about the Northern Irish victims, with Northern Irish people being either too jaded, hurt or bigoted to sympathise properly with victims of the other side or of the other side of the Irish Sea/North Channel. The Warrington Project and Peace Centre fills that gap.

 

But, there is more to it than that. I made such a proposal in 1993 itself but found that I got into hot water with the people I knew for one half sneered at English people being indifferent and the other half mistakenly thought I was saying the English were closet IRA supporters. The idiots! So I chickened out from making such a suggestion myself.

 

I never said anything about a conspiracy within the Peace Centre. I said I feared a conspiracy against the Peace Centre, is locals were making snide remarks about it.

 

The kids are getting the publicity. You should read the newsletters of the Trust, past editions are available online at the Peace Centre, and if you popped in I am sure they could hand you some literature. Of course the NSPCC and the Youth Club get credit and mention- they are their partners.

 

Try to read through the site carefully. It isn't that difficult.

 

It isn't just about meeting dignitaries. They just come on special visits. The best day perhaps to come is on a Friday during school terms, then you'll see the thing in action- which I have not seen, but I have spoken to the people there about their activities on both of my visits there. The visits of the dignitaries is not an ego trip for the adult leaders. It's a necessary part of a charity working to get support and patronage.

 

Plus, if you look at the sponsors you will see they go beyond Warrington, TD. My main worry is, "Where are the Northern Irish firms involved?" Ahem, cough cough. They need to muscle in too.

 

And of course there are other charities in relation to peacebuilding such as the Clinto Peace Centre in Enniskillen- and don't forget Corrymeela. But I am baffled as to why you say, "Well I say is why should the Warrington people donate to you".

 

I'm not part of the Tim Parry/Johnathan Ball Foundation For Peace. I'm a private citizen from Belfast who donates to the Foundation who is trying to explain the necessity of the organisation to you and why it fills a hole which the other peace groups don't. There isn't any attempt to brush the NSPCC and the Youth Club under the carpet. If you got the tour of the Centre as I did, you will find heavy emphasis on the other two organisations, and the first thing that hits you upon entering the building is the Youth Club.

 

"So please do not give get the impression that what happen in Warrington and after is why there is peace"

 

Again, you aren't reading my posts properly. It certainly played its part and helped the Northern Irish protests for peace gain a momentum they would never have got otherwise, but there is of course far more to the story than that, which I would have to tell the story of in the History section of this website. Look, I come from Northern Ireland and know the story pretty well, and far more deeply than most. I am in agreement with you on the need to remember the others. The point is that the Trust was needed because of the other atrocities, too, especially as some Warringtonians noted the frustration of Northern Irish people who felt ignored in the publicity.

 

Actually, I think you will find that the seeds of the Peace Process were first sown by John Hume as long ago as 1982- I would NOT count for example the Hume-Adams Talks of 1988 as the starting-point, though the Enniskillen Bombing proved to be the Watershed event indeed which enabled Hume to be able to proceed, as Adams privately realised even with his ruthlessness and continued violence, that a step too far had been taken that day in November 1987. Rather all these bits and pieces were part of a much larger jigsaw puzzle. There is not single thing you can say THIS IS IT in relation to what brought the Troubles to an end. More a case of THIS IS PART OF IT. It's not quite complete even now, and I feel the seeds of the next round of trouble are already being sown too.

 

What I am saying is yes, the Peace Centre may be a small cog in the machine, but it does have its place and it deserves credit in contributing what it can.

 

Here's another thing, TD. While it might baulk many of my fellow Ulstermen, but the fact is that the mainland bombing campaign WAS politically important, and dealing with that was a key to resolving the whole situation. That's because, although the Troubles started over sectarian rivalries between Protestants and Catholics, and political rivalries between Unionists and Nationalists, from 1971 the main feature of the Troubles was the conflict between the IRA and Britain, mostly over here but less so in England. And for 20 years of such bombs in England, nobody seemed to think of having an East-West peacemaking venture. Something like the Peace Centre was long overdue, though in my original ideas for it, I envisaged the people of all Ireland, not the people of Warrington, as taking the initiative. So perhaps the Warringtonians are taking too much of the burden, but, the fact is, who is it the Peace Centre are turning to for training and advice? The peace groups over here, like the ones you mentioned and other, even more important, older ones. And the International Centre for the Study of Conflict help and train them too.

 

My support for the Peace Centre is based on the need for East-West peacemaking. The more recent problems of Islamic terrorism make such an English peacemaking organisation, modelled on the Northern Irish ones, all the more immediate and necessary.

 

[/i]

[observer]

Still not answered my question Gman. btw perhaps your peace message could find it's way into the current impasse in Stourmont, before they return to the pursuit of politics by other means - again!

[Goonerman]

More nonsense from Obbs, blithely ignoring the practical side to what the Peace Centre does. Why are you so hostile to working against the problems the IRA were exploiting in their ruthless pursuut of power based on suspicion and division?

 

Note the biased and unfair reference to 'brainwashing' techniques and the loaded nature of the so-called objection.

 

I'm not interested in brainwashing techniques. My job is to help as a citizen in the general work for peace in a secular society on the one hand, and to proclaim the Gospel from the religious point of view on the other. I've explained clearly that it DOES work and in spite of man's evil there is still good in the world. The reason why God doesn't stop it all is because if He was to stop it now, He would end up destroying this planet and humanity completely, as we all deserve hellfire, but in mercy gives us a chance, and treating us as adults, allows us to choose. He's also waiting for every human philosophy of history to drain itself out, before He finally intervenes once and for all.

 

I'll be blunt. Without real Christianity the human race would have long since been extinct. It restrained the Troubles, and was another factor in preventing a full scale civil war. The clergy were fully involved in brokering not just the 1990s Northern Ireland ceasefires, but also the 1974-75 ceasefire as well.

 

You may blether about the crimes of the Church, but these were in times when the Church was in sinful rebellion and needed to be disciplined. And I believe that Western society is being disciplined by God right now.

 

Peace does work. You still live a decent life, I am sure, and are able to spout on the internet from your armchair. We live, in for all its problems, a rich country.

 

I don't know why you are complaining so much when you aren't supportive of the kind of people who try their best to keep the peace and are often quite successful, otherwise there would be bombing atrocities all day and every day. You can't have it both ways.

 

As for Bush and Blair, I don't recognise either of those guys as being Christian. I look to Jesus, not to them. They are bandwaggoners and heretics, no better than the Emperor Constantine. To quote my 4th century hero, Athanasius, WHAT HAS CAESAR GOT TO DO WITH THE CHURCH? As Jesus says, "By their fruits you shall know them." "Out of the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks."

 

I'm not going to take the blame for what blackguards outside the church or misusing it do.

 

Jesus gave the explanation for your complaint. It's called the Parable of the Weeds. See Matthew 13:24-30. With reference to the weeds, the servants in the Parable ask, "Do you want us to go and pull them up?" "No", he answered. "Because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them." As the Master said, "He who has ears to hear with, let him hear."

 

But for the likes of you, as God said to Isaiah,

 

"Be ever hearing, but never understanding, be ever seeing, but never perceiving. Make the hearts of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed." Isaiah 6:9-10.

[observer]

Even more gooble de gook, but no answers. Why is it that despite all the talk, all the prayers, in all the churches, with all it's believers - we still have a lack of peace - whether it be from getting your head kicked in by yobs outside your home to our Army bleeding to death in Afghanistan - in one sentence please?!

[Peter T]

The greed of mankind, "I want, I will have".

[Bazj]

And the winner of "who can write the longest reply to a post" is........

[Goonerman]

SIN!!!!!!

 

As God said through Jeremiah, "The heart of man is sick and deceitful above all things else and desperately wicked."

 

Sometimes God got so angry that He told Amos He couldn't even bear to hear the singing of hymns at times, "Stop your noisy harps! Instead let justice roll like a stream!"

 

As Peter said, "Judgement begins with the House of God." Why, because of humanity's failure, God allowed His own shrine at Shiloh to be attacked by the Philistines, then allowed the Babylonians to destroy the Temple in 587 BC and the Romans to destroy it again in AD 70.

 

York Minster got a little taste of this in the mid 1980s.

 

Maybe if people obeyed God's command to repent then there would indeed be true peace, but not as the world gives. You see, if God was to force peace, it would not be from the heart, and then He would still have to cast the human race into Hell at the end.

 

It's not the Church's job to bring peace. The Church's job is to preach the Gospel.

 

Peace is the responsibility of everyone, so for you Obbs to redeflect the question onto the Church hypocritically given your opposition to work for peace and sneering at it, is just sheer double standards. You're part of the problem! I mean, what good do you do anyway?

 

As for Baz, you're incorrigibly frivolous!

[observer]

Precisely my question (still unanswered) to you - "what good do you do, what good does all this praying, talking etc do " to actually deliver peace - none, over the 2,000 years you folk have been at it. In fact, quite the opposite; religion has been a source of most of the conflicts over that period. It is in the nature of man to react with violence in certain circumstances (fight or flight etc); if we had the wisdom, we would be seeking to eliminate the circumstances and indoctrinations that spark such primevil responses. Yet another case for secular education!

[Geoffrey Settle]

Even more gooble de gook, but no answers. Why is it that despite all the talk, all the prayers, in all the churches, with all it's believers - we still have a lack of peace - whether it be from getting your head kicked in by yobs outside your home to our Army bleeding to death in Afghanistan - in one sentence please?!

 

You can't answer that question in a sentence unless you simply say 'It's down to human nature and we are tribal - c'est la vie'.

 

You only have to read the diverse and obscure content above to see that people don't agree and probably never will do - the best we can hope for is to try and understand each other and work together as best we can. But don't hold your breath I'm not.

 

The Peace Centre has members/groups doing really good positive work - it needs all our support and the agreement to celebrate it and move on to more success.

[observer]

[quo 'It's down to human nature and we are tribal - c'est la vie'.

- that was about a sentence!

[tara_dad]

goonerman

It?s been good having this debate with you on this topic but I think I should put this to bed and agree to differ. It?s been good debating with without following up with insults about grammar or spelling mistakes? I hope others are looking and can make get your points of view by doing research. Goonman like you we could go on for week and we would both be right. So I will have my last rant with you and let you take time debating with others.

My last point is Warrington people would like to know if supporting the peace side now it worth it or is it just a big ego trip for adults. Northern inland troubles as gone but we are now dealing with the Middle East. So what?s being done there?

We still having the bombings going on and still in dangers so what is happing about the middle east believe me Northern Ireland as gone.

If any children get killed by Terrorist now the light will soon go away form the peace centre fast?

Its old news now to most of the Warrington people. So what happening and why should Warrington people donate. Ok they jumping on the bandwagon of the middleast but people still think this is an adult thing not a youth or teenagers thing.

Let look at it this way if the NCPCC and Warrington youth club left there, there would be no youth?s reports coming out of there and that?s a fact.

With the above there they are keeping them in the light.

Do you know that Tara ran a poll to find out did adults know what went in the peace centre and over 89% did not, so take that over the average of the Warrington people?

60% did not care and was feed up with seeing the publicity adults where getting.

The donation to other charities went up why people from Warrington gave less to the peace centre big business still do as its grate publicity.

I know of ten who say that but believe me when I say most of Warrington people are feed up with adults getting all the publicity all the time, and I am with them.

I will not give unless I see teenagers working for them self and not being puppets for adults. Warrington youth group have done very well you be saying that it?s the peace centre whom have done that nope it?s the hard work that the teenagers have put into it .

How many of the teenagers cover all of Warrington? You will find it?s a very small part of Warrington teenagers which attend the Peace centre and Youth centre side it?s a small area around the centre so what good is that, when it?s building its self is too far to most of the Warrington youths but on the door step of adults.

And lets talk about wages came on how many get paid we are not talking about youth workers here on the board where can we look up the expenses for the peace centre side? Can any one tell me so we can put it up? You can find it with other business? So how much is paid in wages or expenditures?

All that I have found to date is

Total Income ?0.38m Admin Costs as% of Total expenditure 5.74% Admin Costs as% of Total income 7.65% Fundraising costs as % of Voluntary Income 27.38% Number of Employees 11 Fundraising costs as % of Total Expenditure 8.51% Total Funds ?1.85m Total Investments ?0.08m

 

..................... Income ....Expenditure

Apr 06 -Mar 07 ?379,440 ?505,054

Apr 05 -Mar 06 ?407,087 ?399,512

Apr 04 -Mar 05 ?341,196 ?458,682

 

if any one can find out would like to know

[observer]

You could always look at it as a "job creation" scheme!

[Geoffrey Settle]

I've just been looking at this month's Warrington Worldwide magazine (No 109). In which is the Autumn 2008 Newsletter.

 

If anyone wants to read about the work at the Peace Centre then I can highly recommend the it.

[Agamemnon1]

Just a couple of observations re the Peace Centre.

 

1, Why was it built where it is, instead of , say, the Dallam/ Longford area, which was and is crying out for such a facilty ?

 

2, I had occasion to visit the centre one evening a couple of years ago,

I was very impressed by the facilities, from the outdoor sports areas to the attentive staff and the state of the art equipment, the only thing i couldnt see was children using the facilities !!

I may have arrived at the wrong time or the wrong day i dont know, but thats the way it appeared.

Like i said .

Just observations

[observer]

Probably didn't want it trashing every five minutes, like that other white elephant at Blackbrook!

[Peter T]

Which one might that be, observer?

[observer]

Guess?!

[Agamemnon1]

I think i know which one Obs means Peter .

 

What should have been a vital part of the community sits empty and unused.

The person/persons responsible should hang their heads in shame !!

[Peter T]

H. Squ?

 

That regime didn't want Community centres, CDO's or anything that would help and promote Communities.

[observer]

And after all the money being spent - the positive outcomes are?!