Magna Cater?

[observer]

An historic document, signed between rebellious Barons and King John at Runneymede (1215?). It contained many clauses to correct the absolute power of the King, the main one being that no one would be imprisoned without charge (ie: knowing why they were being locked up); I think the limit then was less than 48hours? Later, trial by combat or torture, gave way to trial by jury; and formed the basis of English Law that has now spread throughout the civilized world. Now, in this age of so-called enlightenment, we have yet another con- trick being perpetrated upon a gullible British public, by extending imprisonment without charge to 42days! They have, after 30years of a real terrorist threat (IRA) without such powers; sexed up reasons to extend powers to fight a bunch of amateur Islamic Radicals with their kitchen chemistry set bombs. The fact is; that once introduced, such laws can be applied to anyone of us; they won't have to give a reason for your incarceration either. What next - waterboarding?!

[byrdy]

An historic document, signed between rebellious Barons and King John at Runneymede

You've been watching the telly again Ob's.Good program though.Shame it was the Yanks who had to put up the memorial to it in Runnymede.(with 1 e )

[observer]

.... also a shame the Yanks have completely ignored this mainstay of common law, by creating Guantanamo!

[Mary]

I realize this is old history and that what is happening in Guantanamo Bay is wrong but.... what about the Cyress Internment Camps that the British had for Jews after World War II?

 

Cyprus internment camps were operated by the British for internment of Jewish immigrants who attempted to immigrate to the Mandatory Palestine during the 1940s in violation of immigration quotas set for Jews. In spite of repeated requests to lift restrictions to save lives otherwise lost in the the Holocaust, and later the plight of thousands of displaced Holocaust survivors, the British still enforced the quotas set in the White Paper of 1939. Jews escaping Europe in the Beriha and attempting Aliyah Bet were detained at sea or after landing, and held indefinitely and without trial in prison camps on nearby British-controlled Cyprus.

 

Where transport ships were intercepted on the high seas by the British Royal Navy, those ships that did not sink (many were old and not sea-worthy vessels) were escorted to Cyprus where internment camps were constructed for up to 30,000 detainees. They consisted almost entirely of Holocaust survivors. Funds for maintenance of the camps were taken from taxes collected from the Jewish population of Palestine.

 

The first camps were constructed by German prisoners of war (POWs). Conditions for POW's were determined by the Geneva Convention; there was no equivalent convention for imprisoned civilians so the German POWs were generally treated far better then the Jews. Use of POWs for construction purposes was eventually halted as it interfered with British de-Nazification programmes (POWs generally concluded that the British were treating the Jews no differently than the Nazis). Jewish inmates did not take the German presence very well either.

 

Because of pressure from the United States and in response to the recommendations of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, Britain agreed to allow 1,000 Jews a month into Palestine. To reduce pressure in Cyprus (there was fear of a Communist led Cypriot uprising), half that quota, 500 Jews a month, were allowed in from Cyprus. That meant that most Cyprus internees expected to spend a couple of years there before being allowed into Palestine.

 

In November 1947 the United Nations voted to recommend the UNSCOP plan in Palestine, which called for the establishment of a Jewish state, including a harbor into which Jews could immigrate. Britain refused to implement this point before the mandate ended, leading to accusations that the British government was in contravention of the United Nations decision. The Soviet Union responded to the British failure by allowing Jewish illegal migration to depart from Romania.

 

Despite donations from Jewish charities in the United States and contributions from the Jewish Agency in Palestine, conditions in the camps were hard. The camps lacked proper supplies of running water, soap, clothes, sheets and there were complaints regarding inadequate food supplies. Most of the inmates were deeply traumatized Holocaust survivors including large numbers of orphan children.

 

Thanks to British willingness to allow British and American Jewish communities to aid the inmates and limited press access, inmates did not face the kind of viciousness or deprivation associated with Nazi or Soviet concentration camps. Volunteers from Palestine were allowed to live in the camps and these included educators, nurses and doctors. Volunteers were unpaid and generally shared the inmates living conditions, except that they could take occasional holidays while the inmates could not leave.

 

Over time 50,000 people were imprisoned in the camps and several thousand children were born there. Even after the establishment of the state of Israel the British government continued to hold 8,000 Jewish men of "military age" and 3,000 of their wives in order to prevent them joining the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. During this period inmates were held under conditions of indefinite detention with no known release date. They were eventually released in February 1949, following the British government's decision to recognize the state of Israel.

[observer]

... and those Jews that the Brits did let in, later went on to murder British soldiers and policemen as members of the terrorist Stern Gang etc! The Brits btw invented "concentration camps" in the Boar War!

[tonymaillman]

The Magna Carta was actually ignored by one particular Earl Ranulf III (6th Earl of Chester) virtually wrote his own laws for Cheshire, as the county was one of the two very powerful palatinates that the crown had problems with ....... the other being Durham. In fact after John's death the country was ruled for a period by William Marshal until the rightful heir Henry was of age, Marshal was held in very high esteem by the barons and along with the church 'stood in' to oversee England. Ranulf also playing his part in this.

So defiance has always been there, there's an old saying Obs - Rules are made to be broken

You watch too much telly anyway

[observer]

One can never get too much information, the secret is in sorting it!

[tonymaillman]

True but most of the telly stuff is produced to appeal to the 'general interest' audience ............ most of it is tripe if you know your stuff

[Jerry]

Bless you Mary for the history lesson. I read the book EXODUS but never connected it to Guantanomo. I notice Obs thinks those Jews went on to kill Brits, but doesn't seem to mind if the Arabs Islamists get to resume their killing of Americans and other Western Civilization people. Interesting compartments in brains.

[observer]

Not so Jezz; I seek to observe the inconsistences of life and comment accordingly; and I try not to condone terrorist violence by either side, albeit currently a rather one sided event.

[Jerry]

Immediately I sent previous post, I realized you can and do criticize both sides. My defense is that I discern differences between terrorists and freedom fighters, unlike many 'liberals' who cannot believe in good and evil. In a recent film Hugh Grant says in reply to a absolutely insane proposal, " yes two sides to every argument..." and Drew Barrymore replies, "except for the Nazis. I was never able to see their side of it."

 

I believe in good and evil and I believe the Islamists are the epitome of evil at this time in mankind's history -- even though I've read all the nice things they've done through history. They are incompatible with modern life and I appreciate too much the social progress, the medical progress, the technical progress and many other progresses that they seek to destroy.

 

I'm aware of propaganda, especially our own, but that doesn't mean I equate ourselves with the enemy -- they have declared war, declared us the enemy and have sent death and destruction on us. They degrade all of our modern institutions from education to information and global economics. They are evil according to the compartment in my brain that senses danger, destruction, watch out, ready your defenses, circle the wagons, hide the women and children....

[observer]

As I recall, your ancestors held similar views about the Native Americans, thus endevouring to wipe them out - alas that had more to do with their impediment to economic progress - gold in the Black Hills of Dakota etc; which prompted US Governments to foster an anti-Indian culture. Now there is oil in them M/Eatern deserts; proxy control of the area via a US funded Israeli Defence Force; with historic wrongs not being corrected; which merely perpetuates the causation of the hatreds that secure your culture of fear. If you rain down bombs from the air on innocent civilians, it's just a form of State terror (shock and awe); which acts as the recruiting sergeant for counter action. With religious fundementalism acting as the extremes on both sides, it's yet another arguement for secular sanity.

[tonymaillman]

I'm gonna shock you now Obs .......... but that last post is spot on ! totally agree with you on it !!!

One point though ........... it's still proving religion is a huge factor in planetary disruption ! the crusades have NEVER ended

[Jerry]

I echo 'spot on'[. No argument here. Except that I have a bit of that native american DNA myself, and an enormous tolerance for ambiguity. I also have a 'get over it' attitude, and a belief like Dr. Pangloss that this is the best of all possible worlds (taking into account the world that is being redirected by our cousins of the Allah persuasion) and we must all cultivate our gardens.

 

It is fashionable in California to express dismay at the Spanish conquistadors and their slaughter of the natives, insatiable thirst for gold, and their imposition of Catholicism. But the alternative would be a continent today of human sacrifices and slavery by the majority of indigenous people by their own false gods/rulers/priests.

 

I carry a grudge against the Nazis and the Islamic murderers.

 

Not all victims of our armed might and manifest destiny are noble innocents.

[tonymaillman]

Fair point about the Conquistadors Jerry, they were pretty ruthless I agree ......... but .............. as regards 'false gods/rulers/priests, what - or who - is to say any of our beliefs by anyone on the planet isn't false or unreal ?? any form of anyones beliefs could be expressed as false or untrue, hence the problems religion causes now and always has done

[observer]

I think you may find Jezz; that the Islamic resurgence was a reaction to the imperialist interference of the US and fellow travellers in M/East affairs, driven by exploitative economic motives and an historic biase for God's chosen people. It's quite ironic, that your home grown christian fundementalists, who seem to have political influence on US policy, have allowed such a symbiosis with the decendents of the murderers of Christ?! There was a period where secular nationalism brought some sanity and stability to the region (Kemel Attaturk, Nasser, Saddam Hussein etc); but again ironically we took out a strong secular leader and a bulwark against Iranian Theocracy, by invading Iraq.

[Jerry]

Hog wash! What are you smoking?

[observer]

Thought for a minute I was discussing a subject with a mind superior to that of his President?!

[tonymaillman]

You're just being a creep now Obs aren't ya ?

[Goonerman]

Religion misused by politicians, you mean!

 

Ah yes, secular sanity, as represented by Communist China, North Korea, and Soviet Russia, who stuck their oars in supporting the Arab side in Israel. Secular sanity which supplies the greed over the oil, and bandwaggoner American leaders like George W Bush who pretend to be Christians.

 

And of course the usual misuse of people only nominally attached to Christianity culturally to wrongly target the belief system!

 

(Interestingly, the Qu'ran allows that Israel belonged to the Jews, with the Arabs living in amongst them. Try telling that to Islamic extremists.)

 

The Crusades are a red herring. Not least that the Crusaders lost, nener.

 

Most wars are NOT caused by religion. Wnat that long list you people ignore? (How to wind up Tone- Edward I invading Scotland???? Hehehehehehe!)

 

Wow, and look at Obb's warped confusion in getting angry about Christian 'fundamentalists' in the US funding evil Brit murdering Jews who are descended from the people who murdered Christ and getting outraged and schocked.

 

Gosh, some dangerous codswallop there. Let me see, first of all those sensible ones in American churches who support Israel are in favaour of peaceful solutions to the Israelis and Palestinians at conflict, and are working with people in those two nations who share the Holy Land for reconciliation and a workable deal, which most people there want.

 

First, those released from Cyprus cannot have been involved in murdering Brits as they were released too late, in 1949!

 

Oh yeah, right, blame all the Jews, or at least all the 1st century Jews for murdering Christ. Jesus was Jewish. His disciples were Jewish. Many Jewish people and leaders disapproved of His murder. And besides, I'm glad He was murdered, as He died for the sins of the world. And I regularly commemorate that death in gratefulness through Holy Communion. (No true Christian would hate the Jews for the death of Christ. I'm glad He died.) If you read the Gospels closely, the Sadducees betrayed Jesus to the Romans, and some nationalistic and corrupt Pharisees betrayed Jesus to the Sadducees. And there were something like 5 factions of Pharisees at work in the Gospels. Judaism wasn't exactly united in the 1st century, not counting the Essenes or the Zealots. And Luke makes it clear that most Jews were upset at the crucifixion of Jesus, which was done on the sneak in the early hours to prevent a riot.

 

Plus, as Jesus yelled out, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

 

And why should you Obbs be all het up about the Jews murdering Christ? Or is it just a gibe at Christians being 'inconsistent' supporting Israel for Jewish complicity in the death of the thoroughly Jewish, totally Israeli Jesus? Unless, you are one of those 'Jesus was an Atheist' nuts like those who honoured Richard Dawkins with an Atheist Jesus t-shirt (one of his most prized possessions), or the old clown I politely debated with in Speaker's Corner at Hyde Park who had the placard, Know Jesus, Reject God?

 

It's fun seeing Obbs condemn terrorism across the board; good for him. He never did that when I discussed matter with him before. (Like our 7/7 row two years ago.) Mellowing? Or showing a different face to different posters?

 

Or maybe you're just baffled.

[observer]

Nope, only baffled by your theocratic waffle!

[tonymaillman]

Goonerman ............ DON'T get me started about Edward I !!

 

I don't agree that the Crusades are a red herring ........ yes they were lost, BUT ........................................

[observer]

Ironically, David Davies has caused a by-election for the express purpose of getting an informed public debate on the subject of the errosion of civil liberties - hardly any coverage on TV todate - so it seems his was a futile gesture.

[tonymaillman]

Not surprising there's been no publicity for it we're not allowed civil liberties anymore in this dog hole country ! they're hardly going to give lots of coverage to anything where people might have a bit of choice now are they ?

[observer]

Well, they certainly don't want to involve the peasants in an informed debate.