Heated Argument Awaits -

[asperity 958]

I can accept that Bill. We also can't call on slave labour which gives China a further edge 😉

[Stallard12 243]

Not been following this topic, but will throw this in.  In Texas, the payback on solar panels is generally accepted at 20 to 25 years.  Seeing as we get around 300 days of constant sun every year, I can’t imagine it being better in the UK.

If everyone had solar panels and the landscape was covered in wind farms, it could still only produce enough to be a supplementary source, the bulk would still be produced by fossil or nuclear fuels.  It’s obvious that the most sensible plan is to develop nuclear Power Plants while continuing to enjoy fossil fuel, then when it runs out just switch to all nuclear.

If the myth of climate change by emissions comes into the conversation, it is immediately made moot as long as we have India, Pakistan, China and the rest of the third world.  

[Bill 376]

Yep I’ll go along with that but the payback time on solar or heat pumps depend on the overall cost of installing a system and the price of electricity over the payback time. People won’t go for something so expensive that takes 20 years to get back so there’s little point in the government even suggesting it.

What I was suggesting is for the country to setup a manufacturing plant here in the UK and make the stuff here as opposed to importing it from China and if we can do it at cost or even for free then the payback time becomes irrelevant. No slave labour needed, we simply reduce unemployment and cut CO2 emissions at the same time.

I reckon it's 100% doable but it would mean creating a nationalised industry working for the good of the country rather than for private profit and that pill would probably too big for this government to swallow.

 

Bill 😊

[asperity 958]

British Leyland Mark II?

[Bill 376]

Very nearly Asp but we’d just have to do it a bit better.

For nearly thirty years I ran a highly successful company that worked along similar lines, producing equipment that allowed smaller companies to access technology that was normally only affordable by larger companies.

It depends entirely on where you set your goals and the altruistic model worked well for me, my staff and my customers. It doesn’t always have to be about making money and personal gain and helping others is something that I find more rewarding than any amount of dosh.

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II 523]

There was a piece on Countryfile, showing how heat can be collected from a canal.  A heat exchanger is submerged in the water, which retains heat relative to the outside temperature, and piped through a building.   But I can't see how this can give a hot internal temperature, not like turning your thermostat up with gas central heating.   

[Bill 376]

A heat exchanger system can be turned up and down just like any other but flat out it doesn’t get quite as hot as a conventional system so that’s why good insulation is recommended. Not everyone has a canal nearby so most would use one that takes heat from the outside air.  

 

Bill 😊

 

[Confused52 303]

1 hour ago, Observer II said:

There was a piece on Countryfile, showing how heat can be collected from a canal.  A heat exchanger is submerged in the water, which retains heat relative to the outside temperature, and piped through a building.   But I can't see how this can give a hot internal temperature, not like turning your thermostat up with gas central heating.   

The pipes are used to feed a heat pump. It is like an inside out fridge, the pipes on the inside of the fridge take heat out of the cold compartment and using electric power push it as heat to the cooling fins on the outside. In the river heating case the cold pipes are submerged and the cooling fins are your domestic heating system or radiators. 

The temperature of the heating system is not determined by the temperature of the river water but by the energy from the mains driving the heat pump. The process is similar with ground sourced pumps that get the primary energy from a hole in the ground.

[Bill 376]

While thinking about all this, I’ve been checking the live feed to see how much electrical power comes from the various sources and it shows that while wind and solar overall makes up a significant proportion of our needs it’s about as reliable as the local bus service. Yesterday morning just as it was coming light, there wasn’t a breath of wind and obviously no solar so the gas-powered plants were working overtime.

The conclusion I draw from this is irrespective of how much more wind and solar we add, we’ll still need just as many gas-fired stations on standby to pick up the slack. Year on year they make up 25% of our needs and in favourable conditions they can produce more than 50%. So, it seems logical to me to believe that we could continue to invest in these relatively cheap unreliable technologies as they do add power and reduce the amount of gas being burnt but it doesn’t do anything to provide a stable grid.

Moving domestic heating from gas would probably mean building even more gas fired stations as they’re cheaper and far quicker to build than either nuclear or hydro.

 

Bill 😊

[Evil Sid 896]

Sure there is some place that uses refurbished car batteries to store electric to feed back to the grid or maybe it was to charge electric cars.

Might be an option for small rural areas.

[Bill 376]

For sure that’s going to happen Sid because when all the cars are electric, the stored energy in their batteries would be more than the entire grid so they will be able to sell their power back to the grid to meet peak demands. There’s no free dinners though and the power has to be generated at some point.

 

Bill 😊

 

[Evil Sid 896]

The technology is there bill referred to as V2G. when you are not using your electric car you can opt to have the stored charge sent back to the grid leaving you with a preset charge level for your car.

If that is the case then "old" batteries that may not hold a full charge could be used as a similar storage idea for use during peak times.

[Bill 376]

That’s correct Sid and it shoots down the sceptic’s argument that used batteries will cause the end of the world because scrap yards won’t have a clue how to deal with them. My understanding is that a used battery still have a relatively high value and all the manufactures have schemes to take back them back either for recycling or repurposing.

In power terms this could help smooth out the sharp peaks in demand during the day but once all vehicles are electrified, the amount of stored energy becomes more like a giant reservoir, able to sustain power for weeks on end in the absence of wind or sunshine. This will take a long time to happen but when it does it means that with just three or four times more renewable sources, we could stop relying on burning fossil fuels completely.

If it helps to stop the warming process all well and good but if it doesn’t then at least we’ll all have cleaner air to breathe.

 

Bill 😊

[Observer II 523]

None of us will be around by then Bill !   😉

[asperity 958]

I hope everyone is enjoying the Global Warming this week.

[Observer II 523]

While we're still here !    😉

[Bill 376]

Loving the global warming at the moment Asp and my washing outside is drying a treat.

The feed in system for cars is already happening although at the moment it’s negligible. But when all cars become electric it’ll make a big difference, and ten years after that when used batteries outnumber new ones, we should have more than enough reserve capacity to fall back on.

Bear in mind that this is happening anyway and starting the process early might not seem logical to some, but it’s far better than waiting for the grid to start failing before we begin taking any action. As long as the roll out of more solar and wind continues to match the electrification of cars, then we shouldn't go too far wrong.

 

Bill 😊

[asperity 958]

I've got my washing freeze-drying outside as well Bill 🥶

[Stallard12 243]

Bill, research the US solar panel company called Solindra.  Good old Obama touted them as the future and handed them $500 million dollars for expansion.  A few weeks later the declared bankruptcy, closed down the plant and split the ‘loan’ equally between the Directors !   This was followed by the closing of all domestic solar equipment production.  China wins again.

[Observer II 523]

So, why didn't Donald sort them out ?    

[asperity 958]

1 minute ago, Observer II said:

So, why didn't Donald sort them out ?    

If a company has gone bankrupt and the directors scarpered, what's to sort out? 🤔

[Bill 376]

It’s not the first time a private company has cashed in on a deal involving public money but that shouldn’t be possible if the company was owned by the government\public. Just to be clear, I’m no big fan of nationalisation but if the objective is to is to produce something as cheaply as possible and without profit then it’s the only way to go.

 

Bill 😊

[Davy51 608]

On 4/14/2021 at 2:16 PM, Evil Sid said:

Sure there is some place that uses refurbished car batteries to store electric to feed back to the grid or maybe it was to charge electric cars.

Might be an option for small rural areas.

 

[Davy51 608]

I think that was one of the channel islands ,Sid.

[Evil Sid 896]

Could well have been,i just vaguely remember reading about it somewhere a while back but have had a few sleeps since then and a quick google did not turn up the article no matter how i worded the search.